Sort out the police, or make it fair for gang members.

[Qrow]

My $0.02 on this issue is very simple; 

If you don't want to play. Don't play.

-
The long version;
For however long it is that I've been SI, I've worked with the gangs, Lost MC, Courts, Firm, etc - spoken to leads, liaised with development, staff and management on both sides of the balance coin. Things that are unfair for the police, things that are unfair for gangs. Conrad more recently, before him Josh and Greenhalgh have all done the same during my time as a member of PolCom. The real polcom, not polcom light. Hours are poured into doing that, every comment is considered, weighed, merits examined or dismissed. 
However, it has become clear to me over that time that for the majority of players on our server - people's need to be the "hero of their own story" far outweighs their want for balance, story, or even stopping and thinking and then... - just doing the right thing based on what would be "fair" for the other side. 
Sometimes it's not even that, sometimes people just undermine positions for a quick meme, or a laugh. The immaturity is boundless. 
Peoples digital possessions matter more to them than roleplay and generationally - far too many people need that gameplay loop of time = reward, little serotonin boost that follows from modern game development.

We're not immune from making the wrong decisions. We're human beings. Some of the decisions I make will not pan out, some will. I'm not infallible and neither are the rest of the police. Saying "This makes me not want to play" is a non-argument - it's a tantrum and honestly, I don't care if you do play or not. It means nothing to me. 
No one is making you play. You are the one choosing where, how and when to play a video game.
If you're not enjoying it... don't play it.
If people were voting with their feet, then change would happen sooner. They're not, so the issue's can not possibly be as bad as you would have readers of the thread believe them to be. The police are not committing the crime of the century by preventing you from succeeding in your criminal roleplay.
Could they be better? sure. Could you be better? sure. No one entity is the cause of all issues on the server. 

There are gang leads that actively purport the opinion that they "don't roleplay with the police whenever possible" - a toxic position, and poor mindset. Certainly one that serves to improve nothing. Ultimately I don't care if you feel that Polcom ignore gang lead points of view, we don't, we just don't always bend to your will. I can't say the same. Many times I've queried the balance on something, or made a comment regarding a poor outcome for *all* involved not just the police and been left unanswered. As such I have withdrawn myself from the police - gang lead conversation, because frankly, it's a waste of my time. 

If you're not seeing the change you want to see from the police, I'd look closer to home at why the police position has shifted and continues to shift into a more aggressive format. 

As it stands, considering server meta. I will not be making any drastic changes to police procedure in how police deal with criminality on the server. Nor would I recommend or deal with changes in Pol-Com meetings.
 
Thankyou for your concern, I've said everything I need to say ~
 

 

[ReggieW]

Oh I absolutely agree the grinding part of it is hard. Selling drugs or the daily trips to the mine, smeltery rinse repeat - the economy IMO is fucked, need a wipe, but that besides the point. At the same time though, it's a UK server, getting guns shouldn't be easy. Even if the stockpiles are fucking huge - again, the economy. It's fucked.

I understand it's not easy, but overall, you guys do steamroll us and fairplay to you all  . Just need those extra steps and planning, and you could do some real damage. As I said though, seems it is by design. There are also things in the works AFAIK but I cannot comment, time will tell.

We do get our equipment for "free", it costs money but from the police budget. I never said you're overpowered, but you are powerful, gangs have many tactics they can employ. The point overall is it shouldn't be easy. If you're prepared, you'll fair much better, if you aren't. You'll get fucked. Same goes for the police if they aren't prepared.



I'm glad some are willing to have a constructive debate, but please everyone reading, don't let it devolve into a cesspit of aids and cope. We're all adults, let's behave like it. Goes for both sides  

Also hostage situations are a whole other kettle of fish, worth keeping it on topic my lovely gents and ladies.

I think what you're misunderstanding Scott is that the majority of the time, gangs don't PLAN to fight police, the police just insert themselves in the middle of a gunfight when neither gang is prepared and it's unavoidable, and it's when the police use assets like MRAP and 99 in a situation they've forcefully inserted themselves in.

 

[zycho]

.

My $0.02 on this issue is very simple; 

If you don't want to play. Don't play.

-
The long version;
For however long it is that I've been SI, I've worked with the gangs, Lost MC, Courts, Firm, etc - spoken to leads, liaised with development, staff and management on both sides of the balance coin. Things that are unfair for the police, things that are unfair for gangs. Conrad more recently, before him Josh and Greenhalgh have all done the same during my time as a member of PolCom. The real polcom, not polcom light. Hours are poured into doing that, every comment is considered, weighed, merits examined or dismissed. 
However, it has become clear to me over that time that for the majority of players on our server - people's need to be the "hero of their own story" far outweighs their want for balance, story, or even stopping and thinking and then... - just doing the right thing based on what would be "fair" for the other side. 
Sometimes it's not even that, sometimes people just undermine positions for a quick meme, or a laugh. The immaturity is boundless. 
Peoples digital possessions matter more to them than roleplay and generationally - far too many people need that gameplay loop of time = reward, little serotonin boost that follows from modern game development.

We're not immune from making the wrong decisions. We're human beings. Some of the decisions I make will not pan out, some will. I'm not infallible and neither are the rest of the police. Saying "This makes me not want to play" is a non-argument - it's a tantrum and honestly, I don't care if you do play or not. It means nothing to me. 
No one is making you play. You are the one choosing where, how and when to play a video game.
If you're not enjoying it... don't play it.
If people were voting with their feet, then change would happen sooner. They're not, so the issue's can not possibly be as bad as you would have readers of the thread believe them to be. The police are not committing the crime of the century by preventing you from succeeding in your criminal roleplay.
Could they be better? sure. Could you be better? sure. No one entity is the cause of all issues on the server. 

There are gang leads that actively purport the opinion that they "don't roleplay with the police whenever possible" - a toxic position, and poor mindset. Certainly one that serves to improve nothing. Ultimately I don't care if you feel that Polcom ignore gang lead points of view, we don't, we just don't always bend to your will. I can't say the same. Many times I've queried the balance on something, or made a comment regarding a poor outcome for *all* involved not just the police and been left unanswered. As such I have withdrawn myself from the police - gang lead conversation, because frankly, it's a waste of my time. 

If you're not seeing the change you want to see from the police, I'd look closer to home at why the police position has shifted and continues to shift into a more aggressive format. 

As it stands, considering server meta. I will not be making any drastic changes to police procedure in how police deal with criminality on the server. Nor would I recommend or deal with changes in Pol-Com meetings.
 
Thankyou for your concern, I've said everything I need to say ~
 

so there is nothing wrong then ?

 

[Baron Butcher]

I think what you're misunderstanding Scott is that the majority of the time, gangs don't PLAN to fight police, the police just insert themselves in the middle of a gunfight when neither gang is prepared and it's unavoidable, and it's when the police use assets like MRAP and 99 in a situation they've forcefully inserted themselves in.

But you saying "gangs dont plan to fight police" is naive. If you are shooting guns in the city, police will ALWAYS turn up. You should always expect us to turn up. Always have a plan

 

[ReggieW]

But you saying "gangs dont plan to fight police" is naive. If you are shooting guns in the city, police will ALWAYS turn up. You should always expect us to turn up. Always have a plan

they turn up with the exact same mentality no matter where we shoot guns. I don't expect police not to turn up, just because they turn up doesn't mean we HAVE to fight, atleast that's how it didn't use to be when the mentality was much better.

 

[Scott]

I think what you're misunderstanding Scott is that the majority of the time, gangs don't PLAN to fight police, the police just insert themselves in the middle of a gunfight when neither gang is prepared and it's unavoidable, and it's when the police use assets like MRAP and 99 in a situation they've forcefully inserted themselves in.

Hiya Reggie, hope you're well  

If you're referring to a specific situation, I won't be able to explain or justify why police were there and their intentions. Hope you can understand.

Ultimately, we cannot sit idle and let you fight. But we also cannot intervene immediatly. The balancing act eh? However the main thing that should be happening if its a gang vs gang is there should be warnings & ultimatums issued to both sides. If this doesn't happen, then that absolutely needs addressed. I can also understand your reasonings in roleplay for fighting, for example, Aztecas at Hen House because Lost had one of your members. 100% understandable, but when I spoke to an Azteca, I said, "stop fighting and we'll get your boy, you can stay in Paleto but stop shooting and we'll get him and return him to you." - The answer was no and it's understandable, but we also gave you the chance to stop fighting. 

I will always be fair and grant you the opportunity to stop fighting, usually multiple opportunities, more than some police would like. Even if you're fighting for the reasons which are completely understandable. But we cannot simply let you do it, there is a limit to our leniency and that limit runs out.

If you're going to fight a gang, and ignore our demands, chances, ultimatums, opportunities to disperse and stop shooting, you should absolutely be prepared for police to engage you. Obviously, I cannot see your perspective to ensure those demands reached your ears but usually you're well aware given some respond with the usual "fuck off" and other such lines. There was an amusing one the other day, called firearms officers "npc's" . 

Now, with all that being said, I'm more than happy to take feedback on after a certain situation on where we can improve as we only see one side so just reach out to me and I'll do my best as we're not perfect. If you also want to query or clarify why police did a certain thing in a certain situation, just give me a message and we can discuss in future. 

Hope this helps. 
 

 

[ReggieW]

Hiya Reggie, hope you're well  

If you're referring to a specific situation, I won't be able to explain or justify why police were there and their intentions. Hope you can understand.

Ultimately, we cannot sit idle and let you fight. But we also cannot intervene immediatly. The balancing act eh? However the main thing that should be happening if its a gang vs gang is there should be warnings & ultimatums issued to both sides. If this doesn't happen, then that absolutely needs addressed. I can also understand your reasonings in roleplay for fighting, for example, Aztecas at Hen House because Lost had one of your members. 100% understandable, but when I spoke to an Azteca, I said, "stop fighting and we'll get your boy, you can stay in Paleto but stop shooting and we'll get him and return him to you." - The answer was no and it's understandable, but we also gave you the chance to stop fighting. 

I will always be fair and grant you the opportunity to stop fighting, usually multiple opportunities, more than some police would like. Even if you're fighting for the reasons which are completely understandable. But we cannot simply let you do it, there is a limit to our leniency and that limit runs out.

If you're going to fight a gang, and ignore our demands, chances, ultimatums, opportunities to disperse and stop shooting, you should absolutely be prepared for police to engage you. Obviously, I cannot see your perspective to ensure those demands reached your ears but usually you're well aware given some respond with the usual "fuck off" and other such lines. There was an amusing one the other day, called firearms officers "npc's" . 

Now, with all that being said, I'm more than happy to take feedback on after a certain situation on where we can improve as we only see one side so just reach out to me and I'll do my best as we're not perfect. If you also want to query or clarify why police did a certain thing in a certain situation, just give me a message and we can discuss in future. 

Hope this helps. 
 

i think the balancing act was very well around 6+ months ago when we fought ballas. The police would let both parties fight while driving around with sirens and the MRAP etc, however if a car decided to get singled out or a person was on his own after the fighting was going on for like 20+ minutes then they'd try arrest him. Nowadays you see firearms officers jump into a gunfight between 40 people, shooting everyone they're allowed to. It was much better when police only got involved towards the end of fights, as they should and I think it makes most sense balancing wise. If a fight has gone on for too long and a conclusion doesn't seem close, THATS when police should intervene.

 

[Bryn Clark]

If I was currently not banned it would be fair for gang members as I'm a better shot then anyone about on the G O D xx 

 

[Harry Catraz]

I don't know about that one, I could swear that 90% of the time firearms are out, they have max ammo and maybe pushing 150 for a pistol too.

You cant keep tracks on everyone and everything they do.

Im not going to comment on the wider issue here, because i cant be bothered with the drama.

As an Ex-Inspector, everything is logged. Armoury, Garages, Whitelisting. The whole shebang. 

Logs are regularly audited and those who abuse their permissions get removed from the unit. The logs are easily readable, you can search names, objects, dates etc.

I know for a fact, when head armour was released and it was more heavily restricted, members of Police including Tac-OPs, CID etc were removed back to response.

Before the no corruption rule, logs were heavily used in counter corruption. I personally removed someone from RPU who decided to get bladdered and drive a marked V90. Without the logs, that wouldnt be possible. 

Im no longer in Pol Seniors, so i cant comment on APSTRA etc as im no longer part of the decision making.

So i guess what im trying to say is, dependant on APSTRA (which i have no control over), its is possible to keep track on things. 

Hope you have a good day

 

[Scott]

i think the balancing act was very well around 6+ months ago when we fought ballas. The police would let both parties fight while driving around with sirens and the MRAP etc, however if a car decided to get singled out or a person was on his own after the fighting was going on for like 20+ minutes then they'd try arrest him. Nowadays you see firearms officers jump into a gunfight between 40 people, shooting everyone they're allowed to. It was much better when police only got involved towards the end of fights, as they should and I think it makes most sense balancing wise. If a fight has gone on for too long and a conclusion doesn't seem close, THATS when police should intervene.

Now, this I can explain.

6+ months ago, I and others who were leading (OFC) these situations had a fair and reasonable approach to these. It was with the understanding that the server didn't have many avenues of roleplay for gangs to enjoy so we let you fight, then stepped in once the time was right. This approach, recieved a lot of detriment and hate from within our own ranks, citing we're being too easy on gangs and gangs dont fear us. I understood the last point, it was reaching a point where it felt gangs didn't worry that armed police were there. Even though I personally prefer it. It also recieved a lot of backlash internally because instead of getting 'stuck in', we were left to deal with all the injured people and do medical roleplay on people who we didn't even shoot - this demoralised and demotivated a lot of people. The point was we're not the NHS, we don't log in to be 'combat medics'. 

We also couldn't just take all the injured to pillbox and provide 0 medical roleplay and then seize guns, because that too is shitty and not the standard we should be providing. So some of us were stuck between a rock and a hard place. 

Recently, we (Firearms Command) were issued a directive from above our heads citing we needed to be more aggressive with the gangs. This isn't an order any of us can ignore. So unfortunately, this is where we're at now. That directive as well is supported internally as a lot of police felt we became too lenient and our stance on high risk gang crime wasn't aggressive enough, which in turn has motivated police and firearms to log in for operations and deployments. 

Hope this clarifies. 

 

 

[Alex Moreno]

Now, this I can explain.

6+ months ago, I and others who were leading (OFC) these situations had a fair and reasonable approach to these. It was with the understanding that the server didn't have many avenues of roleplay for gangs to enjoy so we let you fight, then stepped in once the time was right. This approach, recieved a lot of detriment and hate from within our own ranks, citing we're being too easy on gangs and gangs dont fear us. I understood the last point, it was reaching a point where it felt gangs didn't worry that armed police were there. Even though I personally prefer it. It also recieved a lot of backlash internally because instead of getting 'stuck in', we were left to deal with all the injured people and do medical roleplay on people who we didn't even shoot - this demoralised and demotivated a lot of people. The point was we're not the NHS, we don't log in to be 'combat medics'. 

We also couldn't just take all the injured to pillbox and provide 0 medical roleplay and then seize guns, because that too is shitty and not the standard we should be providing. So some of us were stuck between a rock and a hard place. 

Recently, we were issued the directive from above our heads citing we needed to be more aggressive with the gangs. This isn't an order any of us can ignore. So unfortunately, this is where we're at now. That directive as well is supported internally as a lot of police felt we became too lenient and our stance on high risk gang crime wasn't aggressive enough, which in turn has motivated police and firearms to log in for operations and deployments. 

Hope this clarifies. 

 

We still can’t do much just saying, I will also add we don’t wanna fight police, you guys jump up on building hoping you get shot by one of us so you can open fire I’ve seen it first hand

 

[Scott]

We still can’t do much just saying, I will also add we don’t wanna fight police, you guys jump up on building hoping you get shot by one of us so you can open fire I’ve seen it first hand

Sorry? We don't intentionally put ourselves in a position to be shot, so we can then engage you. If that's the case, flag it with POLCOM through group-leads or contact me directly. More than likely it's some police officer being a moron. 

 

[PinkSprinkles]

But you saying "gangs dont plan to fight police" is naive. If you are shooting guns in the city, police will ALWAYS turn up. You should always expect us to turn up. Always have a plan

So we should say the same thing to police when they pull us for RDM in QE? You should ALWAYS expect you might get shot going into gun fights?

Quite frankly reading over everything it shows that police will forever always think is about 'egos' or loss of items. It isn't, its a server to enjoy and part of the crim side is having to grind for things especially now we cant keep massive stocks of guns. Crims are telling you, the server they are tired of it and maybe gangs aren't interacting with police anymore because of the level of RP. Not because of a bruised ego. No one cares if police shoot and win but the force from police to shoot and fight is unreal. They are there to provide pressure now rather than dispersal and no one is asking for us to be left alone just to fight? But there's better RP routes for police to move gangs and separate them. It has worked in the past and clearly yous choose not to do it anymore. 

The comment about police not being a gang? Idk what police officer I've ever seen shooting guns and tasers out their windows, or bean bagging someone over and over and over just so they can get close enough to arrest. 

 

[Omar Farrell]

A few years ago it used to be fun to fight police, that came down to the fact that both sides were equally matched. Never used to be going into a fight with the police and basically knowing that you are going to lose no matter what you do because of all of the tools they have at their disposal. I've been in situations when the *NEW* police use the MRAP to ram and kill everyone when its the only vehicle left VS 10 gang members. And I already know police mains are going to say, "well the police force is powerful in real life and you wouldn't do anything to them", and yes that is true, but we aren't in real life this is a game. Or you might just say "run/drive away from the police then, if you don't want conflict", in the same situation with the MRAP, the only reason we were staying around was to pick up 1 or 2 people downed and get away, but that wasn't possible due to the AIDS on wheels. Even though I have used this instance as an example, this goes to show this is an everyday thing for a crim to go up against.

Even though I did go on a little rant there, not all police officers are like this. There still are some officers that play that give crims the benefit of the doubt. When police officers have everything at their disposal with 0 consequences, my mindset would go towards prolonging the rp between the two sides. And I know that crims try to rush things sometimes with officers, but I think that's mainly due to the fact that there isn't any trust build OOC wise between the two sides. At the end of the day we are all here to have fun.

MRAP Video:
https://medal.tv/games/gta-v/clips/1g8Qj21-FOhi2i/d1337gw4qk7F?invite=cr-MSxBclAsMjMzODczMjQs

 

[CSI Greenhalgh]

A few years ago it used to be fun to fight police, that came down to the fact that both sides were equally matched. Never used to be going into a fight with the police and basically knowing that you are going to lose no matter what you do because of all of the tools they have at their disposal. I've been in situations when the *NEW* police use the MRAP to ram and kill everyone when its the only vehicle left VS 10 gang members. And I already know police mains are going to say, "well the police force is powerful in real life and you wouldn't do anything to them", and yes that is true, but we aren't in real life this is a game. Or you might just say "run/drive away from the police then, if you don't want conflict", in the same situation with the MRAP, the only reason we were staying around was to pick up 1 or 2 people downed and get away, but that wasn't possible due to the AIDS on wheels. Even though I have used this instance as an example, this goes to show this is an everyday thing for a crim to go up against.

Even though I did go on a little rant there, not all police officers are like this. There still are some officers that play that give crims the benefit of the doubt. When police officers have everything at their disposal with 0 consequences, my mindset would go towards prolonging the rp between the two sides. And I know that crims try to rush things sometimes with officers, but I think that's mainly due to the fact that there isn't any trust build OOC wise between the two sides. At the end of the day we are all here to have fun.

MRAP Video:
https://medal.tv/games/gta-v/clips/1g7WfxIQvYj4vc/vJtUqm4qRcB3?invite=cr-MSxwNXMsMzA4NDM2MzUs

Medal clip does not work

 

[Delilah]

Medal clip does not work

It’s a video of mrap just running every cunt over in sight

 

[CSI Greenhalgh]

It’s a video of mrap just running every cunt over in sight

thats not helpful as it 5 months ago and I want to know if i dealt with it or not.

 

[Scott]

There are rules in place regarding person vs MRAP. It's a non-issue. If it happens, raise it to staff

 

[Delilah]

thats not helpful as it 5 months ago and I want to know if i dealt with it or not.

5 months ago or not, this is actively what it is like to fight police unfortunately.

The whole talk on hostages too, back when I first did bank over a year ago, we had 2 hostages 1 at each door, actively raising our guns to them to show we are a threat and if police try anything then that hostage was at risk, hostages used to be a massive thing to police and usually the hostage helped roleplay because it was a case of making demands and then here have the hostage in return, now a year down the line and I’m seeing multiple clips of people trying to do banks or other things with a hostage the same way people have done it for years, apart from this time round, the police do not care for the hostage anymore, just push into the building and shoot, catching the hostage in the crossfire. 
 

Crims want to do things like bank because it opens up more of the criminal side of roleplay, but with how having hostages has been treated i feel like it’s slowly putting people off wanting to even do anything like that because even if you try to provide roleplay it just seems like it gets shut down. 
 

and then to come here and read that “you had guns at the hostage” and “hostages don’t give you a shield” to me just proves the mindset in which we are all saying are an issue. We are criminals, we are robbing a bank and have other peoples lives at risk and a hostage to make our demands with, hostages we’re so important back in’t day police roleplayed the hostage correctly and quite frankly would of never pushed in the bank, even when the doors was locked it was proof of life, take the demands and then usually ends up in a good chase, but the past couple of ones that have been attempted have just looked like a shit show. 
 

That is the problem we are having but most people are in denial, it’s a shame really.

 

[ReggieW]

Now, this I can explain.

6+ months ago, I and others who were leading (OFC) these situations had a fair and reasonable approach to these. It was with the understanding that the server didn't have many avenues of roleplay for gangs to enjoy so we let you fight, then stepped in once the time was right. This approach, recieved a lot of detriment and hate from within our own ranks, citing we're being too easy on gangs and gangs dont fear us. I understood the last point, it was reaching a point where it felt gangs didn't worry that armed police were there. Even though I personally prefer it. It also recieved a lot of backlash internally because instead of getting 'stuck in', we were left to deal with all the injured people and do medical roleplay on people who we didn't even shoot - this demoralised and demotivated a lot of people. The point was we're not the NHS, we don't log in to be 'combat medics'. 

We also couldn't just take all the injured to pillbox and provide 0 medical roleplay and then seize guns, because that too is shitty and not the standard we should be providing. So some of us were stuck between a rock and a hard place. 

Recently, we (Firearms Command) were issued a directive from above our heads citing we needed to be more aggressive with the gangs. This isn't an order any of us can ignore. So unfortunately, this is where we're at now. That directive as well is supported internally as a lot of police felt we became too lenient and our stance on high risk gang crime wasn't aggressive enough, which in turn has motivated police and firearms to log in for operations and deployments. 

Hope this clarifies. 

 

This goes back to that balancing issue then, as right now I believe it's swayed too heavily towards police, complete opposite end of the spectrum. I understand police don't want to be combat medics, however from what I can gather this all comes from because firearms were bored and wanted to shoot more people as there was the entire arrest process, transport roleplay and so on which is where the police come in but it seems to me that firearms don't want to do that. This new mentality and directive has completely ruined things for crims as it quickly shuts down all roleplay for them and any chance of further roleplay occuring with the other gang.

Can I ask who issued this directive?