Initiation does not belong on GTA RP

[CodyLtd]

Brief Summary: So I found out that this new rule was supposedly made 

https://gyazo.com/5c9a2f4f08cf98ca6c82bb70883d318a

This is in regards to police shooting people who are actively posing a threat to life, and this new rule make it that police now have to initiate instead of shooting the guy that is shooting at people I think that this should be removed as fast as possible.

Detailed Suggestion:

Frankly, I think that this is the worst new addition to the server I have seen, as this sets us so far back in terms of roleplay that it is stupid. You know for a fact that if this rule stays, then there would have to be a rule about counter initiation for the criminal involved, and this will soon devolve into a rule play fest where people have to try and figure out the best phrase to say before shooting someone, instead of actually roleplaying and shooting someone that they would have. Here is an example of the great roleplay that this rule can create; 

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The Pros: Removing this rule will keep the server fun and allow people to actually roleplay.

The Cons: Removing this rule would cause police to continue shooting people who are trying to murder someone, and this might cause the murderer to be upset.

Does this suggestion change balance on the server ? Yes, it lets cops actually respond in a roleplay manner instead of reading a script then getting shot in the face.

 

[Johnathon Reeds]

Personally I think it's fucking ridiculous that as Police, we would be expecting to place ourselves in the middle of an active gunfight, just to effectively initiate and probably end up getting shot in the process.

People should be able to easily recognise that when they see police, they either need to stop, or they will be shot.

 

[Jayray Holder]

There's not meant to be any "Initiation rule". It's reminiscent of Arma 3, and we all know how that was. 

It's shit to say, but "Just use common sense". Police should use common sense and understand the use of force, and Criminals should understand that "If I start a gunfight, I should be expected to be shot, even if these shots aren't meant for Police". 

I remember Arma 3 days, Rebels would start slaughtering each other right in front of Police, we had to initiate on both parties to be able to do anything.

Initiation rules don't solve anything, it certainly doesn't increase the Quality of RP. No magic word should be used to start a gunfight. Feel the progression of RP and that should guide it. 

High Quality RP should always, If applicable, be given. Common sense should always be utilized. 

If gangs are having a gunfight, they should expect Police to move in and stop the situation from continuing through means of Force. At the same time, this isn't an excuse for officers to shoot the second they see a gun. Compliance should be issued in most circumstances unless it's too difficult to do so.

 

[The Real Jesus]

I don't know any cop IRL that would have ran into the middle of an active gun fight on their own. They would wait for numbers and push effectively. Seems unrealistic for cops to just want to come in blasting. Maybe wait for numbers, blast tear gas etc. Not just start spraying people down. Just my thoughts on it.

 

[Jayray Holder]

I don't know any cop IRL that would have ran into the middle of an active gun fight on their own. They would wait for numbers and push effectively. Seems unrealistic for cops to just want to come in blasting. Maybe wait for numbers, blast tear gas etc. Not just start spraying people down. Just my thoughts on it.

+1 

If a lone cop wants to get involved in a gunfight between gangs, then it's a clear they are not valuing their life.

 

[Namron]

+1

Let's learn from these mistakes made on Altis

 

[CodyLtd]

I don't know any cop IRL that would have ran into the middle of an active gun fight on their own. They would wait for numbers and push effectively. Seems unrealistic for cops to just want to come in blasting. Maybe wait for numbers, blast tear gas etc. Not just start spraying people down. Just my thoughts on it.

I agree with this fully, if there is a gunfight we need to move in numbers, we have a stay safe principle for that, my post is more about if someone starts to shoot right in front of us, rather than if we get a report of a gun fight. If we are on a patrol and we see someone shooting at someone else, we are now expected to announce our self before protecting life and limb, I think that it is silly to ask us to put more importance on a script than someones life, so if I see someone shooting in front of me, I expect to be able to end the threat to save someone. 

 

[ricosky]

Definitely a plus one, initiation rules will quickly turn the server to ruleplay.

 

[Drizzel]

+1, don't let it go to the "I've got friends and allies in the area" route as on Altis.

 

[Drex]

Brief Summary: So I found out that this new rule was supposedly made 

https://gyazo.com/5c9a2f4f08cf98ca6c82bb70883d318a

Our GTA Rules can be found here! <--

"Please note these are the official rules. If you are told differently please ignore them unless it is from a member of the management team."

 

[Sammy]

The Pros: Removing this rule will keep the server fun and allow people to actually roleplay.

So the idea of encouraging people to speak before shooting, would ruin the opportunity to roleplay? I am wildly confused by this statement, ngl.

Disclaimer: I am getting involved in this topic as a member of the community and not as staff.

 

[Ponty]

So the idea of encouraging people to speak before shooting, would ruin the opportunity to roleplay? I am wildly confused by this statement, ngl.

Disclaimer: I am getting involved in this topic as a member of the community and not as staff.

Ah yes I used to love being shot for “role playing” on ArmA.

Initiation was and always will be, the bane of any RP server, it makes situations dull and removes any organic storyline from flowing.

That and from my POV, promotes gunplay as it detracts from stories and any literal sense go run up to someone to tell them “hey I don’t like you, do this or get shot/stabbed/etc”

 

[Chilli]

Also who ever has to declare police are here will get shot instantly thus removing any rp they could have had

 

[Johnathon Reeds]

So the idea of encouraging people to speak before shooting, would ruin the opportunity to roleplay? I am wildly confused by this statement, ngl.

Disclaimer: I am getting involved in this topic as a member of the community and not as staff.

No, but forcing it would. There's absolutely no reason Police should have to put themselves in the middle of gunfights just to effectively initiate before shooting, it doesn't make sense.

 

[Sammy]

First off, there was no word of having to "initiate" whatsoever. People need to stop seeing everything as black and white... All that is expected is that you announce yourselfs and act appropriately to the situation. If it´s urgent, you could go with a simple "Armed police, drop the gun!" for example. If it´s not urgent, talk with people! It´s really not that hard, try it...

Secondly, I don´t feel one bit sorry for the officer in the video. He willingly and knowingly put himself in harms way by getting into the middle of a situation without cover, protection or backup arriving anytime soon and the footage shown is generally just a bad example to make a proper case here. 

Why does it always have to be complaining about everything from all sides instead of using that energy to do something useful and get creative. Work around it, think of other ways... come on people.

And to top it off, just a couple questions... Let´s say police can fire whenever they see fit without saying a word. What is gonna happen when people are in a fight and police turns up... out of fairness, they are allowed to just open fire at police, right? Where do we draw the line? How many meters away can someone be to be deemed not involved? Now you are gonna say common sense... sadly tho, it´s not that common and the cons outweigh the pros. We are here to roleplay so why don´t you just do that...

Disclaimer: I am getting involved in this topic as a member of the community and not as staff.

 

[Johnathon Reeds]

What is gonna happen when people are in a fight and police turns up

All of the officers that I've seen opinions from seem absolutely fine with the prospect of the groups opening fire on us, it makes sense for them to do so, and they do so already now.

Where do we draw the line? How many meters away can someone be to be deemed not involved? Now you are gonna say common sense... sadly tho, it´s not that common and the cons outweigh the pros.

Police in these situations strictly target people with weapons out, or vehicles driving around the area known to be firing from the vehicle/having a weapon.

All that is expected is that you announce yourselfs and act appropriately to the situation. If it´s urgent, you could go with a simple "Armed police, drop the gun!" for example. If it´s not urgent, talk with people! It´s really not that hard, try it...

It's not always that easy. In the situations I'm talking about, often it is mass gunfights between two gangs, and there's no way we could realistically be expected to put ourselves in the middle of that just so I can shout a few words at someone before opening fire.

Where do you draw the line? Do you want police shouting at every individual person? Each gang?

 

[Sammy]

I´ll keep it short as my head is pounding and I´m tired. 
 

All of the officers that I've seen opinions from seem absolutely fine with the prospect of the groups opening fire on us, it makes sense for them to do so, and they do so already now.

Good then that it´s not only about the officers being fine with it. I personaly would prefer to not just be shot at because someone made the decision that I could be involved and be a threat. Also, if they already do that now, they should be reported for RDM. Simple.
 

Police in these situations strictly target people with weapons out, or vehicles driving around the area known to be firing from the vehicle/having a weapon.

Just like police should have the common sense to not dump people in the ocean, right? I would agree with you if that was actually something that could be upheld to a high standard, but sadly it is not. 
 

It's not always that easy. In the situations I'm talking about, often it is mass gunfights between two gangs, and there's no way we could realistically be expected to put ourselves in the middle of that just so I can shout a few words at someone before opening fire.

Of course it is not, neither is it "that easy" for everyone on the other side all the time... It´s sometimes sadly just a case of "suck it up, buttercup" and move on - for everyone. It sucks, but it won´t kill you...
 

Where do you draw the line? Do you want police shouting at every individual person? Each gang?

Think about that again and I´m sure you´ll figure it out. Let me give you a hint: It can´t always be perfect. That´s Roleplay for you.

Thanks for the constructive reply tho. I´ve said all I wanted to say, good evening everyone.


Disclaimer: I am getting involved in this topic as a member of the community and not as staff.

 

[CodyLtd]

First off, there was no word of having to "initiate" whatsoever. People need to stop seeing everything as black and white... All that is expected is that you announce yourselfs and act appropriately to the situation. If it´s urgent, you could go with a simple "Armed police, drop the gun!" for example. If it´s not urgent, talk with people! It´s really not that hard, try it...

Secondly, I don´t feel one bit sorry for the officer in the video. He willingly and knowingly put himself in harms way by getting into the middle of a situation without cover, protection or backup arriving anytime soon and the footage shown is generally just a bad example to make a proper case here. 

Why does it always have to be complaining about everything from all sides instead of using that energy to do something useful and get creative. Work around it, think of other ways... come on people.

And to top it off, just a couple questions... Let´s say police can fire whenever they see fit without saying a word. What is gonna happen when people are in a fight and police turns up... out of fairness, they are allowed to just open fire at police, right? Where do we draw the line? How many meters away can someone be to be deemed not involved? Now you are gonna say common sense... sadly tho, it´s not that common and the cons outweigh the pros. We are here to roleplay so why don´t you just do that...

Disclaimer: I am getting involved in this topic as a member of the community and not as staff.

I fail to see how puting my life in danger to tell someone that I am there is RP, that seems like fail RP as an officer irl wouldnt do it, and it seems like NVL as I know I have a very high chance of instantly getting shot. There is no more RP to me shouting that I am there, that would be me following a script because of the rules, rather than having organic RP where I react in a manner that is natural. If I see someone shooting people in front of me, I expect to be able to shoot them, as I would if they were shooting me, as an officer I am required to protect the publics life as I am my own, and thus I dont believe that giving the suspect a chance by shouting is good RP. Side note, if anyone of the public gets injured because we have to take the time to shout in stead of helping them, I would thoroughly encourage them to sue the officer for negligence, as they would fail their main job of protecting life and limb. That might help people to see why this is a bad idea. Also no it is not a written rule, it is a clarification of the RDM rule which is frankly dumb and inorganic in my and many other officers eyes.

 

[Sammy]

Well that´s just it tho... You are not an actual police officer. As much as we try to make things as realistic as possible, sometimes enjoyability, doability and other reasons will screw that up. That´s just how it is. By opening the doors for people to simply just shoot because of whatever they decide is a threat at that moment, all we do is making space for plenty of abuse, claims of rdm, for which staff then has to draw some kind of line for each and every single case, and simply just a feast for everyone that prefers shooting over talking. 
Sadly high standards and guidelines can not be controlled or upheld for everything and there is bad apples on either side of this. 
No words spoken at all would make things much worse overall. 

For everything else, see my earlier responses. 

Also, if you are not capable of shouting a couple words while taking cover, so you do not put yourself at risk of getting shot instantly like the officer in that clip, that´s kinda on you. 

Disclaimer: I am getting involved in this topic as a member of the community and not as staff.