Initiation does not belong on GTA RP

[CodyLtd]

Brief Summary: So I found out that this new rule was supposedly made 

https://gyazo.com/5c9a2f4f08cf98ca6c82bb70883d318a

This is in regards to police shooting people who are actively posing a threat to life, and this new rule make it that police now have to initiate instead of shooting the guy that is shooting at people I think that this should be removed as fast as possible.

Detailed Suggestion:

Frankly, I think that this is the worst new addition to the server I have seen, as this sets us so far back in terms of roleplay that it is stupid. You know for a fact that if this rule stays, then there would have to be a rule about counter initiation for the criminal involved, and this will soon devolve into a rule play fest where people have to try and figure out the best phrase to say before shooting someone, instead of actually roleplaying and shooting someone that they would have. Here is an example of the great roleplay that this rule can create; 

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The Pros: Removing this rule will keep the server fun and allow people to actually roleplay.

The Cons: Removing this rule would cause police to continue shooting people who are trying to murder someone, and this might cause the murderer to be upset.

Does this suggestion change balance on the server ? Yes, it lets cops actually respond in a roleplay manner instead of reading a script then getting shot in the face.

 

[Phoenix]

And to top it off, just a couple questions... Let´s say police can fire whenever they see fit without saying a word. What is gonna happen when people are in a fight and police turns up... out of fairness, they are allowed to just open fire at police, right? Where do we draw the line? How many meters away can someone be to be deemed not involved? Now you are gonna say common sense... sadly tho, it´s not that common and the cons outweigh the pros. We are here to roleplay so why don´t you just do that...

Disclaimer: I am getting involved in this topic as a member of the community and not as staff.

Your defence in regards to forcing people to speak before firing a gun is "well people will just shoot anyone they see the moment they turn up!", when you should know that's not the case at all, that'd be RDM. When protecting the life of another from someone else where the roleplay before shooting would have already happened, it makes no sense for you to then not be allowed to shoot before speaking to the person.

You've gone from 0-100 by saying you'd be authorising mass RDM, so let me do the same. With this change to the rules, you would then be preventing anyone from ever getting involved in a gunfight again, as every single person turning up would have to make sure they have been heard by the shooter. In situations where you don't know where they are and where you may be pushing a building, you have to say something before shooting, when they may suddenly appear around a corner and shoot you mid-sentence. You nullify gunfights entirely by giving the attacker an incredible advantage - the ability to shoot first. By your own summary of going to the extremes, the other extreme is that no-one can ever go to a gunfight because by doing so they would not be valuing their own life because of the rule saying they have to speak and therefore have to be in earshot, even if a mass murder is happening infront of them. CTSFOs with snipers or shooting off rooftops is dead in the water too, because they certainly wouldn't be in earshot.

No words spoken at all would make things much worse overall.

Disclaimer: I am getting involved in this topic as a member of the community and not as staff.

Absolutely untrue, because words would have already been exchanged. In order to get to a point where you're pulling a gun by rules that are already in place, an escalation and exchange has already taken place. No-one is advocating for the server to be warzone, just that if you see an immidate threat infront of you that you don't have to speak whilst waiting for the other person to open fire on you since you're simply not allowed.

Just like police should have the common sense to not dump people in the ocean, right? I would agree with you if that was actually something that could be upheld to a high standard, but sadly it is not.

Disclaimer: I am getting involved in this topic as a member of the community and not as staff.

This reply is odd. It's not against the rules for the police to do this, and follows the same rules as every other server member doing it, as long as their is good RP dumping and corruption is allowed. This has absolutely nothing to do with common sense, and is about creating corruption RP. You're mischaracterising the use of common sense, in one breath saying one should have common sense to not break the rules, then in the next saying one should have common sense to not create allowed RP, so, using your own phase - where do we draw the line?

 

[Sammy]

You are simply putting words into my mouth. I think I have made my point clear... 

In the last 2 days I have been borderline RDM'ed by police twice. I have seen a couple more scenarios that were pretty poor in terms of about everything and the excuses were usually "That's how we've been taught." 

If people can not be trusted to uphold certain standards and rules to begin with, how are you willing to justify giving them the opportunity to be able to make the call whether or not someone is involved in anything? 

And noone turned anything into mass RDM... I simply said that there will tons and tons of claims, because let's face it, the crying will not stop ever. From either side. 

But since you already failed to see any of my points once, I'll leave it at that. 

Good day everyone

Disclaimer: I am getting involved in this topic as a member of the community and not as staff.

 

[Sammy]

This reply is odd. It's not against the rules for the police to do this, and follows the same rules as every other server member doing it, as long as their is good RP dumping and corruption is allowed. This has absolutely nothing to do with common sense, and is about creating corruption RP. You're mischaracterising the use of common sense, in one breath saying one should have common sense to not break the rules, then in the next saying one should have common sense to not create allowed RP, so, using your own phase - where do we draw the line?

Oh and by the way... Sure, rules wise they are not doing anything wrong and I personaly think corruption is great. What you seem to not see is this:
You claim this suggestion is needed because police officers need to protect lifes, right? At the same time you defend officers literally murdering others and want to give them the opportunity to do so much more effectively. All they have to do is claim "I swear the guy had a gun in his hands" and that´s it... Now don´t start with recordings and police investigation, we all know how that goes. And in the end the only evidence actually seen, is whether or not the person actually had a gun on them, which most people related to gangs do most of the time. 
Yeah, maybe the officer will end up being fired, fair enough. But what about all the people that got shot because of him, lost their gear, went to prison and have permanent record on them just because one cop decided to be a dick? How are you gonna fix that? Or is that just gonna end up in a reee that staff then has to somehow shut down, so you are able to safe yourself a couple words before firing a gun?

I am not saying your points are generally not reasonable when it comes to IRL scenarios. I am saying it opens up more room for error and frustration than it is worth, because there is too many people that will abuse it and refuse to act like adults. 

Noone says you have to announce yourself to every single person involved, all that is asked is that you make yourselfs know. Sometimes the combination of you wearing police uniforms and a simple "Drop the gun!" is enough, sometimes the situation allows some more. And gang members are not blind, someone will see you. Someone will be close enough to hear you shout and they will for sure pass that on right away over the radio.

Also, if someone just shoots you mid sentence they clearly did not understand the rules. 

Disclaimer: I am getting involved in this topic as a member of the community and not as staff.

 

[L1L]

No one wants to see police acting like lone wolf vigilanties. No one wants to have their RP-scenario ended by somone who they wherent aware about.
Id suggest a rephrased like this:
''They should make them aware of their presence, given reasonable time, if the gunfight proceedes or your life is in danger you should intervene.''
I think this can work for both civs and police as one or the other cant just jump of their bike and start shooting, if you want to do that as police you should speak to gang leaders about how they do their wars.

 

[CodyLtd]

No one wants to see police acting like lone wolf vigilanties. No one wants to have their RP-scenario ended by somone who they wherent aware about.
Id suggest a rephrased like this:
''They should make them aware of their presence, given reasonable time, if the gunfight proceedes or your life is in danger you should intervene.''
I think this can work for both civs and police as one or the other cant just jump of their bike and start shooting, if you want to do that as police you should speak to gang leaders about how they do their wars.

Once again missing the point, If I see someone getting shot by someone, I should be able to defend that persons life, I should not be required to give the attacker the advantage against me and the time to keep shooting at someone. That would be NVL of myself and the victim.

 

[Phoenix]

Oh and by the way... Sure, rules wise they are not doing anything wrong and I personaly think corruption is great. What you seem to not see is this:
You claim this suggestion is needed because police officers need to protect lifes, right? At the same time you defend officers literally murdering others and want to give them the opportunity to do so much more effectively. All they have to do is claim "I swear the guy had a gun in his hands" and that´s it... Now don´t start with recordings and police investigation, we all know how that goes.

Disclaimer: I am getting involved in this topic as a member of the community and not as staff.

At this point I question how much of what you say is what you believe, and how much of it is a personal vendetta. Anyone who’s worked in the police know that there’s plenty of avenues a person can take if they’re wrongfully shot by an officer, your choice to ignore them and instead complain here isn’t an issue for the police or the server.

 

[Sammy]

You’re blinded by personal bias, and at this point I question how much of what you say is what you believe, and how much of it is a personal vendetta. Anyone who’s worked in the police know that there’s plenty of avenues a person can take if they’re wrongfully shot by an officer, your choice to ignore them and instead complain here isn’t an issue for the police or the server.

Not at all. If you would have actually read what I said in the countless arguments and points I brought up, you would know that I am absolutely understanding as to what your reasoning is. I just think it is not doable because of reasons I described plenty. 
You are the one going for a personal attack right now, which only shows me how you are either purposly ignoring everything I said or you are generally just not able to see different perspectives to this. 
In no way am I ignoring anything at all, I am merely pointing out that quite a couple officers are already not capable of keeping to the rules and provide proper RP, and the same goes for gang members. I am not part of either btw, I run around and simply look for RP, not even being criminal. 
Neither am I "complaining" here, I am merely making my points as to why I have the opinion that I have, or is that only allowed as a member of police? 

And as I said... What´s gonna happen? The officer will be fired and everyone that lost something due to their actions has to spend money to go to court, which might or might not be succesful, or in the worst case dies and won´t remember at all. So everyone that is not police will have to deal with the repercussions of what you so badly want, except for the police. They would mainly benefit, wouldn´t they? 

Stop feeling personally attacked by simple reasoning and, for once, try to see other people´s perspectives. If you tried to actually give reasonable arguments to the points I brought forward, maybe you wouldn´t be the one looking like what you just accused me to be... No offense.

Oh and btw, I have no reason at all to have a personal vendetta whatsoever, as I have never been the victim of a corrupt cop but merely had bad experiences with a bunch of them in terms of roleplay and borderline powergaming. Again, same goes for gangs, absolutely. And I also had a bunch of good experiences btw, just sadly not recently.

As I have already made my points quite detailed and the responses are getting less and less on point, I will leave some room for others to respond and voice their opinion and maybe give another perspective. After all that´s what it´s about, right?

Good night.

Disclaimer: I am getting involved in this topic as a member of the community and not as staff.