Why are these things the way they are on this server?

[Chewbastian]

This turned out to be a long post so there is a TL;DR at the end of the post. But please do read the whole post, I feel like it's important that this is heard.

I've played on this server for a little over a month, but I have played around 200hours on this server, I've been on daily for multiple hours since I started playing. I'm still new on this server but I think I've got the hang of it by now. I love this server and most of the community. But I feel like there's too many people afraid to lose on this server. I don't know the history behind some of the rules this server has and that is what I want to find out. But I feel like the reasoning behind some of the rules are that people dont want to lose.

This report and the verdict made me write this post. https://www.roleplay.co.uk/topic/79843-report-a-player-j-slime-rdm-action-taken/

(I do not know J slime, I've only interacted with him after he got reported. I haven't talked with him after the verdict. I'm just using this as an example.)

Maybe a day or two before that report was posted on the forums, I was in a situation that was almost identical. I was in J slimes shoes. I shot one guy after my friend had been killed. I was the one going to report them because the other party broke multiple rules during the whole situation. The situation was resolved in TS so it's all good now. A Staffmember was with us on the ts channel going through our clips and said what I did was borderline RDM. I couldn't believe what he was saying.

I wrote about this on the rules feedback post after the incident me and my gang had. It never really got any serious replies. I have multiple questions about the rules I want to be anwsered, but I'd also like to address the roleplaying on this server and the meaning of the word roleplaying.

What does roleplaying mean to you?​

I feel like many of you have the wrong/different understanding of what the word roleplaying means. For me it means playing as a character on a platform that allows you to experience situations you would never experience in real life but acting as if the situations took place in real life, not on the platform you're on. I dont think that "roleplay" should be forced in anyway. Roleplaying should be the way of your playstyle and in no way the goal of it, it should happen naturally. The goal should be a pleasant experience for everyone using the platform we've been given. It's in no way roleplay if you're forced to act in a different manner you would in a real life situation just because you might get banned for it. Also for some reason I feel like people use "roleplaying" as a tool for their advantage too often. It is not roleplaying if you're forced or allowed to act in a way you wouldnt in a real life situation.

The written and unwritten rules​

The rules such as RDM, VDM, combat storing, combat logging, greenzone, bluezone, NLR, and rules regarding NHS are in no doubt mandatory for the sake of everyone playing on this server. But around some rules (especially (2.2)RDM and (7.1.3)killing someone) there are a lot of these unwritten rules, player opinions, and staff guidelines that are hard to find on the forums. What makes it even worse is that there are many people with different opinions writing here without anyone from staff correcting them. It is unfair that someone who has read the rules, knows the rules, and plays by the rules gets banned because someone who knows about these unwritten rules report them.

Questions:​

• Why on earth do you have to say these magic words just so you wont get banned? If someone comes up to you with their gun pointed at you and tells you to put your hands up, does he really need to tell you that otherwise you will be shot? Why do you act like a complete idiot, asking questions like "how could have I known you were going to shoot when you never said so?" when you dont comply and get shot? For example when someone sneaks up on you with their gun pointed at you and tell you to put your hands up, you start running and they havent said the magical words "or you will be shot" they aren't allowed to shoot. But you can grab your gun off your back when you get behind a corner and shoot them. But if you dont get behind that corner and you get shot it's suddendly RDM.
  
• Why do you have to say the magic words "I have friends in the area" so your friends can defend you? Why does a two second sentence said by your friend make all the difference between RDM and roleplay?
  
• Why are you not allowed to defend your friends when they're being fired upon? Why should your friend say that he has friends nearby after someone has started to shoot at them? Why should you not roleplay but play by a script that says you're supposed to talk to the man who shot your friend down in front of your eyes? Why do you have to follow the script when the person who started shooting read the very first line of his script and threw it in the trash?
  
• Why should you get out of your cover to be robbed by the same guys who killed your friend if you could easily surprise and kill them?
  
• Why are you allowed to run away from the situation after you have been initiated on just because the magic words hasnt been said? Why are you allowed to jump in to water and swim so you wont be initiated on? Why are you allowed to drive your vehicle in the ocean so it cannot be robbed?
  
• Why are you allowed to bend the servers rules for your own advantage? Why is possible to bait someone to shoot you by running away without saying anything so it could be concidered rdm/poor rp? Why should you ever feel safe robbing someone? Just because he didn't say the magic words?
  
• Why are you allowed to kill someone after he has done everything you asked him to do? Just because you "roleplayed"?
  

I've been shot at without any initiation nor warning after I've started to rob or shoot at someone, but I've never reported them. No one in my gang has reported them. We understand that we take the risk of being fired upon when we do stupid stuff like that. If my gang member is being shot at, or gets shot down I have and I will in the future defend them.

To the people who bend rules for their advantage and bully people with their better knowledge of these unwritten rules;​

• Why are you so afraid to lose?
  
• Why do you always take advantage of the rules when you're being robbed?
  
• Why do you always think you're right no matter what side you are on?
  

How I'd solve these issues I have questions about.​

• If you're in a gang, it is mandatory to have a gang tag infront of your name. I.e. [XXX] James. This way if you're robbing someone with the name tag [XXX] and you get shot by someone with the tag [XXX] you know he was the guys friend and not a random guy.
  
• Bending the rules for your own advantage(jumping in water, driving your car to the ocean, running behind a corner to grab your gun after you've been initiated on etc.) should not be allowed and shooting people who do this should be allowed.
  
• Killing someone should be your last resort. Not an option. If someone complies to everything you say, you shouldn't be allowed to kill him. Exceptions being good roleplaying situations such as their friends failing to pay the ransom etc.
  

Why are there these kind of issues?​

I feel like most of these issues stem from young players who don't know how to lose. If you get caught out ruining someones day by robbing them, why is it suddendly unfair if you lost your gear instead of him. Prepare better if you're going to rob someone. Dont think that some unwritten rules guard you or the magic words you said or someone didnt say makes your actions allowed. Just because you know the script you're supposed to blurt out better than someone else doesnt mean you're above them. Sometimes playing on this server I get the feeling that I'm watching small children playing at a sandbox and someone tries to steal another kids bucket of sand but when he gets hit with a plastic shovel he runs crying to his mommy.

TL;DR; My opinion about roleplaying and how I feel people misuse the word roleplaying. Discussion about the written and unwritten rules. A bunch of questions regarding roleplaying and the rules. My suggested solutions to these issues and my view of why these issues even exist. Please do read the whole post, I would appreciate it a lot.

 

[KingGodDiabloZ]

In my opinion those rules are pretty sad. I know people who have played on different places and those rules are way better. When someone points a weapon at you threatening it's initiating on their part and you + YOUR FRIENDS (have to be gang members) can shoot that person. And he doesn't have to say the "magical words" of "or you will be shot". This would like real life. Have you ever seen a robber in court saying "I didn't say I would shoot him so I'm not threatening him". I think indeed that those unwritten rules should not exist or be made clearer. Same with the "not valuing life rule". It's not a rule but it is a rule. So I completely agree with what you're saying. 

 

[Gurlanin]

I don't mind people driving their vehicles into the water because it gives me an excuse to use my sea rescue training!

But seriously, there are a lot of unwritten rules, or ways of doing things, that only people who've been here a while will know. I've been here for well over two years, so I know the system fairly well, but not everyone is in that situation.

 

[GHOSTK1LL3R]

I couldn't agree with you more. I don't understand these initiation rules that are in place. It's not  roleplay. I don't see how saying a few extra words makes you immune from being banned for RDM. Additionally, why isn't this in the rules that you should do this? It's not common sense. If I was to rob someone on any other server, i'd never tell them I have friends in the area. That's showing my hand and in my opinion it's is poor roleplay to inform them you have friends in the area because that's your ace card and who goes around telling people their ace card...

Before you look at these, I know how to roleplay. It's not difficult however, these are rules that are in place which are hidden and not stated. If you're going to ban people for not saying 'I have friends in the area'. State that in the rules, it's not obvious...

 

[HackerManCammal]

I couldn't agree with you more. I don't understand these initiation rules that are in place. It's not  roleplay. I don't see how saying a few extra words makes you immune from being banned for RDM. Additionally, why isn't this in the rules that you should do this? It's not common sense. If I was to rob someone on any other server, i'd never tell them I have friends in the area. That's showing my hand and in my opinion it's is poor roleplay to inform them you have friends in the area because that's your ace card and who goes around telling people their ace card...

you camp redzone on the daily m8

 

[Lemmen]

TL;DR; If your attention span ended before you got this far reading the post, you shouldn't be playing on a roleplay server. Try king of the hill instead.

My attention span ended the second you said "There's a TLR" More often than not a TLR is what makes me read the whole thing, even more so from the title you put, it could be an intellectual post, OR (More often than not) it could just be someone crying because things didn't go their way.

• Why are you so afraid to lose?
  
• Why are you allowed to bend the servers rules for your own advantage? Why is possible to bait someone to shoot you by running away without saying anything so it could be concidered rdm/poor rp? Why should you ever feel safe robbing someone? Just because he didn't say the magic words?
  
• Why do you always think you're right no matter what side you are on?
  

I will focus on answering these three questions from you, first I'll make it clear this is my own opinion as a very experienced "Veteran" of the server. What I say has no weight under server rules or any decision making on the server.

The question of why are you afraid to lose is quite complex. You could interpret and answear the question in a simple way:

We're all humans. We like to win, our brain LOVES winning, the feeling when you win, may it be sports, games, a test. Anything. If you win you feel good.

However, a lot of people do not realize that in multiplayer games, and especially roleplay, it is not about winning. And even losing can feel like a success, if you look positively on things. Ofcourse you may become happy, sad or angry, when a situation has ended, may it be good or bad. The feeling of success triumphs winning imo, a success may have been a wonderful, funny memorable moment, like even though you lost the firefight, you did make a good shot, or even though they stole your truck, it didn't have enough fuel to make it to a service station.

The moment people realize that Success =/= Winning and go towards enjoyment of the GAME instead of enjoyment of winning, then they will realize the real fun. Because winning gets boring.

Next question: Bending rules?

Quick answear is simply, you're not. However, capturing people doing this is way harder than normal rulebreakers.

Final question: Why do people always think they're right.

Well ofcourse this doesn't go for everyone, maybe not even 3/4 but I would presume roughly half of the members of the community

Some people just does not like to be wrong. There's also a few stubborn ones who won't budge after proof has been shown to them. This is an individual thing, because if someone can't take critique and put his/her hand up and say "I'm wrong" in a computer game, don't think they'd do it in real life. Again, this roots deeper than their online persona.

Finally I will leave an overall answear to the topic at hand.

I've been here for a (maybe too) long time. The rules are the way now because of an attempt at getting rid of the most gray areas. In my time when I started, there were a lot of gray areas, and the rules (from time to time) were bended slightly. However the unwritten rules made between the players for the players were golden. Most gangs back then had morals, and they had their own internal rules against how they treated civs a little lighter than cops and rebels and trying to make the weaker rebels afraid of them so they didn't have to worry about one of their guys with an insane shot, and I could go on for days. But at the end of the day back then even though 2 gangs didn't like eachother ingame, they didn't flame at each other on the forums, they kept it in the game.

The rules now are treated black and white, this you can do, and this you can't. I can understand that the management team and the staff team have made stricter rulesets than back then, and I think there should have been a stricter ruleset than back then. My opinion on the matter is that the rules are written so black and white, and (some) staff members and players interpret the ruleset too black and white (Again imo). And then it's down to a game of "you can do this, you can't do this" and takes away a lot of the freedom you used to have.

Darn it, I wrote a novel....

EDIT: I forgot the Magic word part. I think it's ridiculous to an extent that the way you communicate with other players is solely down to voicechat. Actions speak louder than words, if someone tells you to stop and they're pointing a gun at you, figure it out. However on the other hand with the "you're behind a rock, they killed your friend, why can't you kill them" The answear to that one is simple. Nobody has the balls to go up against someone who just killed their friend when they have an easy way out. Then rather live to fight another day. The reason this is RDM, is because that's not the kind of roleplay for this kind of server. Oh and the friends in the area thing is to intimidate your opponent so, you guessed it. DON'T GET SHOT. They can call the bluff though...

 

[Samatlewis]

To be honest I am not a fan of  several aspects of several rules but I have to abide by them. Different staff members have different opinions of situations as we are all different people. One person's ideal situation is going to be different to the next.

With regards to some of your points I will bring this up at the next rules meeting. In all honesty I do agree with various points you bring up.

If someone is pointing a fucking rifle at your head giving you commands in a threatening tone and demeanour then they clearly mean what they say. The outcome is OBVIOUS. Roleplay is also about body language; hence why medics will wave their hands around like they're having muscle spasms when inspecting an injured player, like police officers walking in combat stance when approaching a dodgy situation; LIKE A ROBBER POINTING A GUN AT YOUR HEAD SHOUTING COMMANDS AT YOU.

Some valid points however I feel that written answers may be misinterpreted and used as someone's protection in-case they break a rule/play on the borderline.

 

[Chewbastian]

My attention span ended the second you said "There's a TLR" More often than not a TLR is what makes me read the whole thing, even more so from the title you put, it could be an intellectual post, OR (More often than not) it could just be someone crying because things didn't go their way.

My TL;DR came out a bit harsher than I intended to, concidering I kind of bait people reading it at the start of my post. I was going to write a TL;DR but felt like I'd rather have people read the whole thing. I might change it.

About your point of success=/=winning, I do agree. But it is hard to see the success in losing. All I've gotten out of losing is a lesson of what to do next time and that is usually enough for me to get over losing. I feel that losing has become a viscious cycle on this server. The rules are seen too black and white, or atleast there is very little gray between them. It seems like everytime someone does something that he shouldn't really do but it isnt mentioned in the rules and you cant really counter it without breaking the rules, people adapt and start doing the same thing over and over again untill the whole server does it. There's no honor amongst thieves.

I don't feel like there should be any need for these unwritten rules. Common sense should apply. If you're holding a gun against someones head and yelling at them maybe you should understand why you got shot without someone coming to tell you that "I'm going to shoot you because you're threatening my friends life". I feel like these unwritten rules are a thing because of people losing, then reporting, and acting stupid by saying he had no idea he would be shot. But I can in no way understand how the rule about helping your gangmates before "initiating" even became a thing. It makes absolutely no sense to me. I understand that the rule is to prevent random people from shooting someone robbing a guy they dont know. But it's pretty darn easy to prove if 2 guys are in the same gang.

Darn it, I wrote a novel....

Maybe you should haveve written a TL;DR

With regards to some of your points I will bring this up at the next rules meeting.

This is great to hear.

 

[Chewbastian]

However on the other hand with the "you're behind a rock, they killed your friend, why can't you kill them" The answear to that one is simple. Nobody has the balls to go up against someone who just killed their friend when they have an easy way out. Then rather live to fight another day. The reason this is RDM, is because that's not the kind of roleplay for this kind of server. Oh and the friends in the area thing is to intimidate your opponent so, you guessed it. DON'T GET SHOT. They can call the bluff though...

The whole thing about helping your friend is situational. Many times I've told my friends fuck it i'm not risking my life when i'm 1 against 4. But if you have a cover and 2 guys who killed your friend are in the open it is more than realistic to shoot them if you have the chance. And anyways, it is your own call to make, the question isnt if it is wise to go against multiple people, but if you should be allowed to. If you get no chance to talk to the robberers like in the report about J slime. His friend was given no chance to speak with the robberers. From the first time he was told to stop it took 5 seconds for his wheels to be fired upon. Maybe they should have taken an ifrit from the garage and chaced him? Maybe they should have let him get out of the vehicle before starting to threat him? I think it is more than reasonable for J slime to retaliate. It would've been different if the guy got out of the car and baited the robberers to a position where j slime had an easy shot. But since they started shooting without asking questions I dont see why would J slime ask questions. I feel like it is utterly unfair that he got banned for that situation. It is utterly unfair that no rule even implies that you aren't allowed to help your friends. I believe that everyone who has friends nearby and has the time to say so in a situation where you're being robbed you would definetly make it clear.

[SIZE=medium](2.2) Random Deathmatch (also known as RDM) - Shooting at someone without engaging in any form of quality role play (eg. Giving enough time for them to comply with your order. Count downs are not considered quality roleplay, please at least attempt to create an interesting roleplay story before considering shooting.) is considered RDM. (Punishment is a ban).[/SIZE]

This is for everyone to answer, how on earth was the actions of the guys that j slime shot in anyway quality role play? Why should you uphold these standards set by the rule when these standards are not met by the people who are shooting at your friend? How on earth could you even ask of someone to take the time to even think about getting up, walking to the people shooting at his friend when he has the chance to make them stop shooting his friend by firing back? Isn't shooting the ultimate initiation?  Isn't it what this RDM rule demands? Quality roleplay can lead to shooting someone, shooting isn't supposed to lead to quality role play? If the "necessary" steps to shoot one is met in the eyes of the party that starts shooting, shouldn't it be concidered to be met in the eyes of the party who defend themselves. I know that two wrongs dont make a right, but even in real life you can't be held in contempt if you defend yourself or your friend. J slime walking up to the guys would have just made them kill him and that wouldn't have been RDM because "It's an active gun fight". This makes absolutely no sense to me. Even if there was 1 guy who shot 1 of your friends, and you had 5 friends in the area, why would you try to talk reason to the guy who fired the first shot?

These rules about RDM are just silly, this is what I've gathered so far playing on this server:

• Your presence has to be made aware to the person you intent to shoot.
  
• You're allowed to shoot any armed people in the area in the span of 5 minutes from the last bullets shot if you have been a part of the original initiation. No need for further initiation no matter who the person is if he is armed.
  
• You're not allowed to shoot an unarmed hobo when he runs next to you when you're in an active gunfight.
  
• You're allowed to shoot when your presence has been made known, no matter the distance you shoot from or where you arrive to the area. Everything goes when it happens in the span of 5 minutes from the last bullet shot. Saying I have friends in the area includes every friend you have. The number can range from 1 to 129. As long as they shoot before the 5 minute time window expires.
  
• If you are robbing someone, and tell them you have friends in the area, your friends are required to shoot warning shots to make their presence known.
  
• You are not allowed to shoot if your friend who is being shot at does not tell that you are in the area, gets shot before he has the time to make your presence known, is too far away from the shooters to inform of your presence. You have to go near enough the enemy to tell them they will be shot even though they have every right to shoot you if you are armed.
  
• You are allowed to shoot when you go help your friend even though your friend hasnt made your presence known IF the enemy has spotted you and shot at you first.
  

Correct me if i'm wrong.

EDIT: I don't understand what is the difference of you being shot at a second later someone blurts out they have friends in the area than them not saying they have friends in the area. Somehow it's not fair that you didnt have the chance to find cover and find his friend? Somehow it is fair that you're robbing his hard earned money. And no one should be able to retaliate if you have not been given the chance to find cover? That is the most ridiculous way of thinking. A guy spends half an hour to get 400k, you try to spend 1 minute to take it away from him and you find it unfair when your masterplan backfires?

TL;DR; In summary, if I shoot someone I turn the area into a redzone for me. If I see someone with a gun out I can shoot without any questions asked. But if someone sees me first, they have to come and talk to me, but I can shoot them when I see them if they are holding a gun. So basicly at the moment there is no way to help your friends without breaking the rules if he forgets to blurt out the two second sentence "I have friends in the area".

 

[Bobby Shmurda]

You make a very good point. I'd like it that if my friend is in restaince they can be shot. If they are robbing my friend/kidnapping him I want to help him and shoot..

 

[LONG BEARD]

What does roleplaying mean to you?

As someone who's RP'd in many MMO's, I learned early on that Altis Life UK is not like other RP communities. In fact, most people here don't RP a character they've created, with unique personalities and traits, they simply RP themselves. Their own personalities and thoughts, are played out via their avatar. Many feel they must win every situation and the thought of letting your character lose in the interests of RP is rare. In fact, I can honestly say in 8 months of playing, I don't think I've encountered that situation once. At first It surprised me based on my experiences with other RP communities, but in the end I just accept that arma breeds a different type of RP. 

As for the strange unrealistic rules.  I think they take everyone by surprise at first. My first rule break was when I mowed down some guy who jumped in front of my car with a pistol drawn and ordered me to get out. Not only did I run him over, I reversed back over him again to make sure the job was done properly. At the time I felt I acted realistically, it's what I would have done in RL. I realised my mistake when I re-read the rules and whilst I thought the rules were really crazy, I came to understand that they exist for a reason and have been tweaked, adjusted and changed over a long period of time in order to ensure we're all playing on a level playing field. 

I don't agree with all of them, some I find give an unfair advantage to others, but no one person is ever going to agree with everything so I accept them. 

If enough people disagree with a rule, then I'm sure it will surface and be looked at.