Un-ban Appeal - Hololock - 08/24/2016 (Unbanned)

[Hololock]

In-game Name
Holo

Steam ID
76561198023141334

The date of your ban.
08/24/2016

Member of the team that banned you.
Khandamir

Reason given for your ban.
Fail RP

The Server you initially were banned on.

In your own words, please type why you think you were banned.
I was banned for fail RP by sitting inside a heli while there was armed men outside it "initiating" on the heli.

Why should we unban you ?
I should be un-banned as this is my first incident in just over a year of being in this community. I haven't caused issues in my time of being here and i have not had a report on myself since my first week of playing here. My actions to "fail RP" were not intentional, however as a video that i will upload will prove i couldn't hear what was being said to me. As you will see in the footage i am contemplating weather to get out or to fly away and i chose to eventually call for backup from my friends however little to late as i was shot. Regardless of being able to hear maybe i should of taken the hint and either got out etc however for all i know it could of been "fuck off officer or die" rather than "get out the heli" so now I am being told by staff to simply assume the initiation ? So now when some guy aims a gun at my heli I just jump out and spray them down as they could of been initiating ? To the best of my knowledge you are not meant to initiate on a fully spun up heli (tampax even banned the guy reinforcing this idea.) I agree this could of been done better by myself however the trigger happy attitude of the chap that shot me could also be deemed to be excessive combined by the fact that no real life heli pilot is going to hear anything from outside of the heli. It would of been useful if some other indication should be given as its not completely fair to assume everyone speaking to you with a gun raised is out to kill you. 

Footage -

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[Daanish]

@Khandamir

 

[Khandamir]

Okay, fair enough: You did not hear them.. But that is because you are in third person mode. I have literally tested this myself, with earplugs, and in first person mode you can clearly hear it.

Also; you say in the video: I think I am being initiated on at rebel outpost.

So you knew what was going on..

'' To the best of my knowledge you are not meant to initiate on a fully spun up heli ''

When I questioned this, I was answered by management saying that it depends on the situation and on if the person in the heli could have been aware of what happened. From where I stand, you knew full well what was going on. You land a police skinned heli, in a hobo outfit, at a rebel outpost and see 3 guys with guns pointing at you.

I agree that just pointing the guns should not straight up mean it is initiation, I'll give you that, but the circumstances, the way they were pointing them from multiple angles and the area you are in should have been more than enough indication to understand: This is not good, I am in trouble.

'' Regardless of being able to hear maybe I should of taken the hint and either got out etc however for all i know it could of been "fuck off officer or die" rather than "get out the heli" so now I am being told by staff to simply assume the initiation? ''

You are not a officer nor are you looking as one.. Yes, they could have been shouting: fuck off or die. But, look at it like this: You sit in a heli, have 3 big guns pointed at you.. To me it seems that, realisticly, you would either get out/spool down so you can understand what theyre saying, or try to make a run for it, since you are fully spooled up.. To sit there and just contemplate what you would do does not strike me as a logical or realistic response to the situation.

''I agree this could of been done better by myself however the trigger happy attitude of the chap that shot me could also be deemed to be excessive combined by the fact that no real life heli pilot is going to hear anything from outside of the heli. ''

Well, the other guy got a ban for it, so that in itself constitutes that there would have been better options available to him such as disabling the helicopter. This was also mentioned in his appeal, so in no way is he getting of lightly. A real life pilot is not going to hear anything from outside a helicopter, this is true, but this is Arma 3 on a Life mod after all, not real life. There are numerous things that would never happen in real life that are completely acceptable on Altis Life, such as backpacking a fully kitted MXSW in a fieldpack, pulling it out and firing it a second later..

Therefore, I feel the actual ingame facts matter (can your character hear them in game) more than a interpretation of how it would be in real life (pilot would not hear due to heavy noise + probably wearing over-ear pilot headset)

'' It would of been useful if some other indication should be given as its not completely fair to assume everyone speaking to you with a gun raised is out to kill you.  ''

The only way they could have made it more clear to you, since you did not spool down or got out, was to type it to you, which would have caused you to think: Typing isn't RP, I will just ignore that, and rightfully so. Unfortunately, with the limitations in place in Arma, shouting to people is the best we can do.. We can't hold up a sign with written instructions to a helicopter pilot. And no, this does not say you need to assume anyone with a gun raised speaking to you is out to kill you, you're fore-going the fact that every situation has to be looked at separately and should be based on evidence and research into statements. I went through a careful process of testing in-game before I was certain of this ban. And other staff members/support members can attest to the fact that I literally said: if this test shows he might not have heard it, the ban will be lifted and changed into a warning.

From my tests I found out that in first person mode with earplugs, it was clearly audible that the other party said. Distance and use of volume was the same as in the video. The fact you stick to third person view, making you hear the noise from outside the cockpit, not from inside, yet refer to realism in your defence strikes me as odd.. Because sitting in a helicopter, surrounded by armed men and then keep using third person view does not only strike me as unrealistic, but also as not smart, as a experienced Arma player you could have known that you would have heard a lot more when you switch back to first person mode.

So, before proceeding with a unban, I want to, just like was done to the other guy, explain what could have or possibly should have happened here...

1) Spool down the heli to find out why these guys are pointing big guns at your head

2) Take a risk and try to fly off. Your character clearly did not hear a thing, so a panicky reaction to fly off would be something to be expected. It would be a risk as well, since if they did tell you to get out and not fly off they might shoot.

3) Switch back to first person mode to see if you can hear more that way

In the end, this is a very tricky situation to be in, a so called grey area. Nowhere in the rules does it say you can not initiate on a spooled up helicopter and interpretation of what is and isn't realistic, when it comes down to a situation in which a ban is on the table, should be documented in either the rules or in a previous decision that can be referred to. The reason I came to this ban was therefore quite simple; looking at the video, trying to take the point of view of a innocent and deaf bystander on the scene, I instantly know: this is wrong, that guy is in trouble.

You have proven that you knew this in your own video, saying that you think you are being initiated on..

I am confident you did not mean to just flat out ignore it to see what would happen, as I don't think anyone would be that daft, so that boils this down to a wrong decision to stay inside in the hopes of being safe, and the mistake to not try and find out what was being said. As far as I understood, the only intention was to get you out of the heli to get some roleplay, probably with the intent of being nasty to you or maybe rob you.. But the interaction never happened due to you staying inside the heli.

This is the video from the other point of view, as used in the unban-appeal, clearly showing them give enough time to comply before using lethal force. Would have been better to disable the heli, but with the time given and the warnings given, I'd consider their RP of enough quality to pass the test..

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So, after typing that whole essay, I just want to move on.

Holo, when unbanned, do you understand that in situations like these, depending on the circumstances on the ground, it is imperative that you, as the pilot, make sure you know what is being said or if you are being threatened to leave or stay? And that to simply assume you MIGHT be initiated on, yet don't do anything to be sure of this or to run off, is not a acceptable course of action?

 

[Hololock]

While yes i was aware that it was possible initiation (got to make sure my mates know in case it goes south) however I would of responded with not opening fire as i wouldn't want to risk them getting banned if the initiation wasn't actually given yet (e.g. it goes in group chat.)

"as a experienced Arma player you could have known that you would have heard a lot more when you switch back to first person mode."

To be fair most experienced Arma players spend any time under 300M in third person as there is advantages in terms of sight  and aim (I am also a awful pilot so i don't think i have ever flown in first person) so to be honest i didn't really think of this as i haven't experienced many situations where i am sitting there in first person being initiated on as typically I am already in a gunfight if that is the case. 

"I am confident you did not mean to just flat out ignore it to see what would happen, as I don't think anyone would be that daft, so that boils this down to a wrong decision to stay inside in the hopes of being safe" 

This would be correct, I was actually calling for backup however i then contemplated just flying off after i realised they may not arrive on time but switched back to maybe getting out the heli and as you can see this series of processes lead to a delay in my choice of what to do. I would see my actions as fail RP if i was using the whole "I can't hear you so you haven't initiated" excuse however in this case i feel it comes down to my poor judgement at the time deciding what to do and taking far to long in that decision to do something leading to a situation that seems like fail RP.

"if this test shows he might not have heard it, the ban will be lifted and changed into a warning."

I am now aware of the issue regarding initiating on someone while they are in third person so i will take this into account next time. However in the video it isn't heard and you can also hear me mute TS in a attempt to hear what is being said to me. But once again i will switch to first person next time so i can hear what is being said to me.

I do apologise for my actions in that scenario as i can now see in hind-site how my actions may be viewed as fail RP as i was taking to long to choose a course of action (if I was to assume it was hostile initiation to exit the heli as opposed to fly off this is my outpost). In future i will act more swiftly in my decision of what to do ensuring that I either bail out of the situation or take it outside of the heli where we can RP effectively.

Just a ending note, as I am sure you are aware it is difficult to initiate on a spun up heli maybe it should be discussed weather you are allowed to initiate VIA direct on a landed heli so that its clear to the person inside what is happening.

 

[Khandamir]

I am now aware of the issue regarding initiating on someone while they are in third person so i will take this into account next time. However in the video it isn't heard and you can also hear me mute TS in a attempt to hear what is being said to me. But once again i will switch to first person next time so i can hear what is being said to me.

I noted that, and that made me realise you were trying to make sure you could hear what was being said.

Just a ending note, as I am sure you are aware it is difficult to initiate on a spun up heli maybe it should be discussed weather you are allowed to initiate VIA direct on a landed heli so that its clear to the person inside what is happening.

I will bring this up in the next staff meeting. I agree, in this case, writing (in rp would be seen as holding up a tablet (no note, its 2035 ffs) with instructions to stop the heli) in direct chat would be a suitable way to make sure the person inside the heli knows what is being asked of him; get out or fuck off.

I am pleased to read you can see where I am coming from and how this is percieved from our point of view and am confident you will learn from this going forward. This case has brought to light some in-clarities as well, which hopefully can get addressed soon.

Appeal accepted, unban actioned.