Un-ban Appeal - Gazalad (Unbanned: 26/12/15)

[Gazalad]

In-game Name
Gazalad

Steam ID
76561198046667304

The date of your ban.
12/25/2015

Member of the team that banned you.
Unknown

Reason given for your ban.
RDM

The Server you initially was banned on.
Server 1

In your own words, Please type why you think you was banned
In the video which is no longer available, from the players point of view, correct compliance was not issued and as such, the player was shot and killed.

Why should we unban you.
The player uploaded a video to question whether or not the situation at hand was a violation of the RDM rule. The player did this directly after the incident happened and although he did attempt to contact me, I was unfortunately unable to answer to his call at the time (being under fire, in an operationan and such) and when I was able to move channel (Liason room), he had to leave immediately to go to his grandmothers dinner. A mentor, Hank, was present during that situation.

We agreed to talk about it at a later time, we said in about an hour but this happened at 8:01pm where a short conversation took place, to which he informed me that he felt that I had RDMed him.

Unfortunately, the player had walked directly into a firefight to which I believe he was unaware of (multiple officers down, threats being received from a detainee, police still being shot from the outside of the church to the inside). Multiple officers had died and unfortunately he decided to arm himself to which I believed he was a threat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoPDvAuD7NY&feature=youtu.be


Please confirm this unban request is for you.
Yes

I have read and understand the unban appeal process
Yes

Please confirm you understand there is no timeframe for your appeal.
Yes

Before you submit this form please confirm you have fully read the rules click here
Yes

 

[Ciaran]

This was a re-upload of the event:

https://youtu.be/Ed-EFSUmsp0?t=47s

 

[Neo]

See, if there's no gunfire, and a vehicle pulls up, and then jumps out with a pistol... (this is a truck... not a car too).... he sees nothing, hears nothing, notices a free weapon on the floor next to a body... You need to warn, give them the chance to breath.....

I cringe at people counting 5 seconds..... he didn't even have one... ONE officer there did the right thing and issued a form of compliance...

He was rubberballed to death... there was NO need for lethal in this situation....

10C) Rubber bullets and tazers must be used unless lethal force orders are given from a high ranking officer

As most people there seemed to be shooting rubber balls, Was lethal force called? and if so, why were people still using LTL??

 
10D) Police must keep a high level of role play at all times.

It'd be a bad day in the police to start shooting every idiot at the scene of the incident, and an even worse day for the officer in question.

This all said, I RESPECT that it is difficult to tell at times, but I still run in the MIDDLE of a gun fight shouting warnings before I have to open fire, even whilst taking fire... better to keep my ass in check than see a boot flying at me...

After watching your video, you could see he was in the process of still picking the weapon up.... when you STARTED to call your warnings... when he exited his inventory, you opened fire...

chances still could have been given... 

even your video didn't show an active firefight.

 

[Gazalad]

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After being here for a year and 3 months, I've seen all the situations I can be in. Even you've seen it as a previous CSI, gang surrounds drug dealer and fights police until every single one is dead. How am I to know that that man was not involved with the man in the town? How do I not know that that man has a rifle in his backpack? How do I know that that man is not the same man from the town shooting the helicopter?

The guy literally has seen 3 cops dead, and decides to go and pick up a rifle. Why on earth does he think that is an okay thing to do? What sort of roleplay does he think he could get into with that kind of action? That rifle could have gone directly into his hands and immediately shot me in the face. I've seen it with many different rebels hopping out of cars, picking up weapons etc etc.

My video (or his) does not show an active firefight but there are 3 officers dead less than 10m away from me and I'm fearing for my life, shouldn't that be enough to suggest an active firefight?

Even then, I give him compliance (more than most rebels would give us) to which the server / client desyncs for him and then catches up within 2 seconds. How can I be held responsible for a communication error? It's happened to many people before.

It's not as if I've purely shot him on sight, purely because he's in the area, he picked up a weapon to which, in real life, would be considered as an aggressive act upon police.

 

[Neo]

At the end of the day, The police focus should be to APPREHEND criminals for sentencing.... you had enough cover on that guy, and I bet Teamspeak would have confirmed that too "got eyes on" or whatever is said, and judging by the amount of likes your posts are getting, every cop seems to agree with your actions, and this isn't right. It's not,

The guy showed up in a truck... there was no gunfire for a while before he actually pulls up and gets out.... and what rebel starts potato sack shopping in the middle of a "gun fight" that we don't even see. If he had a gun in his bag in the "middle of a gunfight", why would he pick up a crappy MK20?

After watching both sides repeatedly, I'd have to say you were the only one with the desync.

I've sat here and read everything, I've been CSI for near enough a year, but I haven't seen it all. Yeah, this could of been resolved by showing each-others perspectives, I don't know what happened in your attempts to "resolve" the situation, but when the video pops up on the forums for all to see, we have to take actions.

For the people making posts such as:



You need to get your head out the clouds for a minute and take bans for what they are. Countermeasures. A ban is issued not only as a punishment, but a force for sorting out a problem and getting to a solution, if a ban is unjust, then the ban is lifted and never held against them, and that person gains a bit more respect for the future as they've taken the time out their day and tried to resolve the issue instead of raging off elsewhere.

Now I can instantly forgive you on one aspect saying fine, you got desync... but the question's still stand:

10C) Rubber bullets and tazers must be used unless lethal force orders are given from a high ranking officer

As most people there seemed to be shooting rubber balls, Was lethal force called? and if so, why were people still using LTL??

That rifle could have gone directly into his hands and immediately shot me in the face. I've seen it with many different rebels hopping out of cars, picking up weapons etc etc.

You're in cover, and would hopefully have pulled your head out of view....

Back when you took your entrance interview/test to the police force, being over a year ago, you were asked

"what is the police's strongest weapon?" 

What was your answer? 

The real answer is the voice, but cops don't try to talk situations down as much, we're all guilty of the same, and rebels don't value their lives when being warned either... but this isnt the debate for this unban.

You gave a warning, in the middle of his action, whilst doing so, and with your aim, you could have switched to a taser, and tased him, or waited for a colleague to rubber ball them......

This is why there's a ban, we need your view.

 

[Lord Hank of Kavala]

I spoke with the original OP on this in the police liaison room, I'd jumped in to wish a merry Christmas and stayed to listen to the chat that happened. 

He explained the situation to @SGT One Shot and it was explained to him compliance was issued by another officer which he said he didn't hear, but still he wanted to chat with Mr @Gazalad to be sure that everything was above board even stating in the Liason room "I Don't want anybody banned i just want to be sure that everything is okay" 

Gaz was in an operation and couldn't come right away, but 3-4 minutes later he came into the room and the OP said "Im going to my grandma's house for christamas dinner" and asked if we could all have a chat later on in the day to which gaz agreed, and then for some reason it is posted on the forum (Not as a report though) and Gaz gets banned when he was willing to sort it with the Gent. 

Few in this community can boast such credibility as Mr Gazalad, and i have no doubt this could have been sorted in the Liason room without this polava. I'm aware of the rules on this matter, but i feel this has been badly handled.

 

[Gazalad]

At the end of the day, The police focus should be to APPREHEND criminals for sentencing.... you had enough cover on that guy, and I bet Teamspeak would have confirmed that too "got eyes on" or whatever is said, and judging by the amount of likes your posts are getting, every cop seems to agree with your actions, and this isn't right. It's not,

Don't get me wrong, 90% of the people I come into contact with are apprehended, read their rights of silence, transported to a police station and ticketed / sent to prison. The other 10% are operations, drug deals with gang members in a town, bank jobs, hostage operations and general gun fights that we have to deal with accordingly.

The guy showed up in a truck... there was no gunfire for a while before he actually pulls up and gets out.... and what rebel starts potato sack shopping in the middle of a "gun fight" that we don't even see. If he had a gun in his bag in the "middle of a gunfight", why would he pick up a crappy MK20?

The guy showed up at exactly the wrong time, another man armed with a 6.5mm katiba rifle was less than 200m away from us ready to shoot us all down as soon as we even attempted to leave the church. Multiple officers who were in the same channel and in the same situation can attest to this. The only reason I haven't asked them to post in this unban is because I know it's a biased opinion as they are in the police force and their word would account for nothing.

The amount of times I've seen rebels store weapons in their car / backpack and steal dead officers weapons purely to store them in their house for a later date is astonishing. Even those on police holiday have admitted to me that they have done this. He's speeding down the road of Neri sees dead police officers and thinks "oooo dead police! free weapons!". He doesn't think "Oh crap, there's dead police here, maybe I should just drive down the road and re-evaluate the situation before approaching".

After watching both sides repeatedly, I'd have to say you were the only one with the desync.

I've sat here and read everything, I've been CSI for near enough a year, but I haven't seen it all. Yeah, this could of been resolved by showing each-others perspectives, I don't know what happened in your attempts to "resolve" the situation, but when the video pops up on the forums for all to see, we have to take actions.

Frankly, there was no attempt to resolve the situation, he messaged me as soon as he died, told him to wait in the liason room for me, One Shot and @PC Hankattend to him, once I was done with the operation and it was safe to tab out, I then went to the liason room to which he said that he had to go to his grandmothers christmas dinner and that we would speak in an hour.

An hour later, I came back, found that he had posted it in the forums. I didn't even get to say my piece or say that it was a misunderstanding and that a little desync occured.

8pm comes, get to talk to him, and all he wanted to say was that he wanted me to know that he felt that I RDMed him.

Then I find out from Walt that I was banned.

There was little communication to no communication towards me at all. No way for me to defend myself.

Now I can instantly forgive you on one aspect saying fine, you got desync... but the question's still stand:

10C) Rubber bullets and tazers must be used unless lethal force orders are given from a high ranking officer

As most people there seemed to be shooting rubber balls, Was lethal force called? and if so, why were people still using LTL??

If I and other officers are taking shots with multiple officers dead at their feet, with an impending threat of being shot, I would expect officers to have already loaded lethals. Only 1 other officer fired at the civilian to which to the time of writing this post, I have no idea why he was using rubber bullets.

I don't think you understand, if we stood outside the church, we would have been shot instantly. We eventually got the guy with the katiba but lost 2 officers in the process of capturing him.

Back when you took your entrance interview/test to the police force, being over a year ago, you were asked

"what is the police's strongest weapon?" 

What was your answer? 

The real answer is the voice, but cops don't try to talk situations down as much, we're all guilty of the same, and rebels don't value their lives when being warned either... but this isnt the debate for this unban.

You gave a warning, in the middle of his action, whilst doing so, and with your aim, you could have switched to a taser, and tased him, or waited for a colleague to rubber ball them......

This is why there's a ban, we need your view.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that the voice is the most powerful weapon, but we pride ourselves on being a part of a serious roleplay community. With this in mind, it's a shoot or be shot world while playing on the servers and when you've got rebels out for your death, especially with the arma 3 nexus update that allows for pistols to shoot an officer in one. I will happily go around and roleplay the best I can unless I am under threat or if someone poses a threat to me.

I can totally understand that from his point of view it does look like RDM, but I had attempted to follow all police rules and server rules to the best of my ability. I have always said that "Police officers do not have the mentality to go around shooting people randomly" and I strongly believe in that statement and that I did everything by the book. A masked man came to loot dead officers, with a pistol out, I attempted to give him a form of compliance, if it wasn't for the desync it would have been possible for him to say something, or move his mouse to avoid picking up the weapon. A lot of things could have been done on his side and on my side. Roleplay as with any converstaion is a 2 way street, we as police may be expected to have a high level of roleplay, but I should not be held responsible if the other party decides to make certain decisions that directly affect him.

Not every situation is perfect, this is an example of one of them.

 

[Neo]

I'm aware of the rules on this matter, but i feel this has been badly handled.

I feel you're causing issues on yourself.

You need to read my full message hank.

A video pops up on the forums, is seen by many of an SI appearing to RDM a cop...

You also never read the last reply I made, in which you should turn your attention to 

You need to get your head out the clouds for a minute and take bans for what they are. Countermeasures. A ban is issued not only as a punishment, but a force for sorting out a problem and getting to a solution, if a ban is unjust, then the ban is lifted and never held against them, and that person gains a bit more respect for the future as they've taken the time out their day and tried to resolve the issue instead of raging off elsewhere.

and if you goto the post I mentioned;

Sometimes the best way to help a friend, is just to talk to them, if you want to help them further, try get as much information as possible and help them get it posted.

This whole thread, could be seen in many different ways;

1. Fuck the admin team and their shit decisions
   
2. This isn't fair #Protest
   
3. I can't keep my nose out of other people's business
   
4. Let's add another wedge between police and rebels
   
5. Lets try change the rules to a way that benefits <insert side>
   
6. Just a general clarification request
   
7. because I'm Salty
   

I'd say your attempt was option 6... and there's probably many more options that could go into that list....

For now, read his topic, support him, but let's not create a fuss over something that's simple to resolve.

Your opinion is small minded. All he needs to do is tick boxes, and he's a free man.... now I have to spend more time, writing all this to deal with your "opinion" which is overrules as @Vladic Ka said perfectly;

We work on evidence provided. The evidence provided here was sufficient for us to call it RDM as that's what it was for the victim. If I witnessed anyone in game getting killed in this way with very little time to comply, even with the desync lag removed, I would have issued a ban.

4. With the evidence provided all senior admins saw it (except Cardoso) and called RDM on it. Even Gazalads own evidence is weak. 

Now to read an actual useful reply by Gazalad.

 

[Neo]

He doesn't think "Oh crap, there's dead police here, maybe I should just drive down the road and re-evaluate the situation before approaching".

sorry for low image quality, damn youtube video;

Doesn't look like a cop unfortunately #lovethebug, and unfortunately bodies don't have a floating timestamp above them saying how long ago they died.

There was little communication to no communication towards me at all. No way for me to defend myself.

Unfortunately it's a procedure for the good and bad, this (the forums) is the platform to defend yourself on, and here it is in plain text with all its glory. We can't give preferential treatment, and can't message everyone all the time about their bans.

An hour later, I came back, found that he had posted it in the forums. I didn't even get to say my piece or say that it was a misunderstanding and that a little desync occured.

I respect that, but unfortunately, when a video showing a PLAYER (not just a cop) seemingly RDMing, it needs looked into, it could of looked the exact same to an admin spectating it live, and could have been banned directly ingame.... it's the same result, to which contacting an admin on TS about said ban would have potentially increased your unban by upto a week. 

You can see I'm making an extra effort dealing with your unban in a high priority, more-so since the case of "RDM" has been corrected with evidence of desync... although I do think you should comp the guy for his gear and cargo.

If I and other officers are taking shots with multiple officers dead at their feet, with an impending threat of being shot, I would expect officers to have already loaded lethals. Only 1 other officer fired at the civilian to which to the time of writing this post, I have no idea why he was using rubber bullets.

I don't think you understand, if we stood outside the church, we would have been shot instantly. We eventually got the guy with the katiba but lost 2 officers in the process of capturing him.

And this is why we need to make sure all the bases are covered, these are the details we don't know and don't see in either video, and why we're looking into this a little further, this is all on the record so-to-speak, although more on this at the end.

As I was saying, the footage didn't show this, and that's why the lethal/ltl questions are being asked. Once we are satisfied the ban will be lifted, and I've been waiting for 8 hours to get responses, unban > Police apps.  :Cool:

Roleplay as with any converstaion is a 2 way street, we as police may be expected to have a high level of roleplay, but I should not be held responsible if the other party decides to make certain decisions that directly affect him.

Not every situation is perfect, this is an example of one of them.

I agree, but the better person will roleplay even if the person on the other person, is driving up the wrong side of said street.

I know you @Gazalad, You've served under me and now above me, you earnt my respect. We just have to ensure all bases are covered, and will be in the future... even if there's a mad gunman, be the better person, and call out to them.

Unban Accepted.

What's been said here is on the record, but this ban has been deemed un-just in terms of the RDM, however, The Police's focus is to protect, I know he's obviously a criminal, but be the better man, time served rather than life served, and even better, warn him he's in danger and get him in your protection....

Rules were not broken here, but there's a thin line that I hope will get thicker with this response.

Neo.