The Police and hostage situations

[William Antrim]

I have to respectfully disagree. The "it's a game" argument is older than any of this and sadly its been used too often. People will cite pieces of legislation to back their argument since time immemorial. 

The police nterview that people go through ON THIS SERVER  actually says that to protect human life is the first priority. Just because you individually  have different interpretations on how that is achieved does not mean it is an irrefutable fact. 

If the police don't do this then they're literally just another gang. 

Sorry if you disagree but it really is just that simple. 

 

[Bmav]

For me personally (And feel free to disagree) this is police solving the problem that every situation involves hostages and because of this police has developed around this to deal with it (Anyone who patrolled with me know that when their was a life invader i used to say it going to be a hostage situation and demands are safe passage and no spike strips and funny enough the majority of the time i would be right to the point where i just stopped responding to them) Maybe try an rp robbery it might work depending on the officer(s) who responds.

Long story short, Police and hostages is not as "Simple" as what people think / People really need to stop referencing IRL examples for the specific reason being its irrelevant due to this being a game not IRL / if you got a complaint use the courts or contact police command and high chance this is a result after every situation now involves a hostage (Which is because a completely different problem)

I agree with the IRL argument part i hate it when people compare this to IRL and afterwards the only argument we can counter those people with is the IRL argument because they won't listen to the this is a game excuse even if elaborated.

As for hostage situations while i agree they are "repetetive" to cops i would argue that RP banks/Life invader would also be repetetive its a "meta" kinda of thing and if things were to flip on their heads and turn into a google sheet or doc kinda of meta the same would happen regardless (Saying this because of experience with this kinda of thing in Arma)

In my opinion when a hostage situation is breached (even though everything was complied with by the criminal side) its borderline the same as a cop getting shot or stabbed for a traffic stop (which is stupid).

Or the same as a criminal or a cop killing themselves even when one party is providing exceptional medic RP to keep you alive.

Its something repetetive that just needs to be dealt with (same as traffic stops or police regularment while the other part doesnt enjoy it they have to deal with it)  and ending the situation fast because 1 Party doens't like it is kinda annoying for the other guys who are wasting their time for no reason at all besides getting an RP situation over in 20 seconds.

 

[Tigerforce]

I have to respectfully disagree. The "it's a game" argument is older than any of this and sadly its been used too often. People will cite pieces of legislation to back their argument since time immemorial. 

The police nterview that people go through ON THIS SERVER  actually says that to protect human life is the first priority. Just because you individually  have different interpretations on how that is achieved does not mean it is an irrefutable fact. 

If the police don't do this then they're literally just another gang. 

Sorry if you disagree but it really is just that simple. 

It is a game, In IRL i dont work for the police OR NHS or a criminal on the game my characters ARE. you can have realistic elements in a game but the end story is its a game that people play on to have FUN not work. Police policy DOES NOT EQUAL server rules. Police policies can be broken, Hell i know many people who do and thats why their is Corruption. The police policy says one thing but a shit cop may break that rule or choose to ignore it. Hence the RP chances such as sue in court.

I agree with the IRL argument part i hate it when people compare this to IRL and afterwards the only argument we can counter those people with is the IRL argument because they won't listen to the this is a game excuse even if elaborated.

As for hostage situations while i agree they are "repetetive" to cops i would argue that RP banks/Life invader would also be repetetive its a "meta" kinda of thing and if things were to flip on their heads and turn into a google sheet or doc kinda of meta the same would happen regardless.

In my opinion when a hostage situation is breached (even though everything was complied with by the criminal side) its borderline the same as a cop getting shot or stabbed for a traffic stop (which is stupid).

Or the same as a criminal or a cop killing themselves even when one party is providing exceptional medic RP to keep you alive.

Its something repetetive that just needs to be dealt with (same as traffic stops or police regularment while the other part doesnt enjoy it they have to deal with it)  and ending the situation fast because 1 Party doens't like it is kinda annoying for the other guys who are wasting their time for no reason at all besides getting an RP situation over in 20 seconds.

2nd point i agree and understand where you are coming from, I personally hate that mentality.

the rest of you points are focused on RP quality which ive said before is shit on the server at times but it is what it is. End of the day breaching tactic is designed to end a situation when it needs ending for whatever reason (Good OR bad)

For me personally though this just shows the simple part of this discussion:

- Crims want to win

- Police want to win

Nobody wants to RP and want to keep the hostage tactic and expect invincibility.

End of the day RP more / Stop bitching 24/7 / Come up with new ideas rather then the repetitive hostage takings and got a complaint deal with it either ingame through courts or OOC through polcom. 

 

[MrRobeplay]

The fact that we're having this conversation is great and everyone can learn something from other perspectives. As a hostage I will fear for my life and if told to shut up or be killed, I won't speak another word until told to do so. As a crim/the captor I would negotiate to get my freedom rather than shoot an innocent person and risk losing my life/money, etc. As a police officer I would do everything in my power to save the life of the hostage and if this means I need to negotiate for hours with the captor, I would. Of course this is simplifying things again, but as a basic rule, speak first and shoot after.

 

[Bobinz]

You do realize tho, that leaving such criminals to flee also means danger? if they did it once they will do it again.

From every life invader/bank I was apart with, there is ALWAYS and i mean ALWAYS a unit that stays back with the hostage. If no threat is no longer present why should 2+ police units stay with the hostage and let such criminals flee?

 

[MrRobeplay]

You do realize tho, that leaving such criminals to flee also means danger? if they did it once they will do it again.

From every life invader/bank I was apart with, there is ALWAYS and i mean ALWAYS a unit that stays back with the hostage. If no threat is no longer present why should 2+ police units stay with the hostage and let such criminals flee?

If you are a solo unit without a partner then you can tell the person to stay at the scene of the crime and wait for your return or another unit, or tell them to go to the local station to be interviewed and checked for and physical or mental damage. If you was a legit hostage, would you be happy to be left without anyone professional to talk to about your experience. The RP can not end for the hostage because the police are chasing a criminal. The chances of a hostage being in that same situation multiple times is slim, but the criminal will commit more crimes and eventually get caught. I would argue that the best RP fro9m this is actually in dealing with the hostage.

 

[Bobinz]

If you are a solo unit without a partner then you can tell the person to stay at the scene of the crime and wait for your return or another unit, or tell them to go to the local station to be interviewed and checked for and physical or mental damage. If you was a legit hostage, would you be happy to be left without anyone professional to talk to about your experience. The RP can not end for the hostage because the police are chasing a criminal. The chances of a hostage being in that same situation multiple times is slim, but the criminal will commit more crimes and eventually get caught. I would argue that the best RP fro9m this is actually in dealing with the hostage.

we were talking about breaching and letting the suspect flee instead of being with the hostage.
If a firearm officer is solo, I dont believe they will even breach ( not a firearm, so dont quote me on this)
If a police officer is solo, I do not believe they will prioritize the hostage takers from the hostage.

I do believe those that is it very rare that a single unit, solo crewd answer to life invader/bank and instead of staying with the hostage he get on a chase with the hostage takers

 

[William Antrim]

Hostage taking should never equal automatic win. Nobody wants that. Nobody has ever said that. The thing is it needs to be fun for all parties. That's the bottom line. 

If you want to play the it's a game card you need to think about how you're contributing to someone else's fun. If this is truly a game and it's all good fun then everyone should be able to do what they like surely? The thing is that's not fun for all parties either as someone will end up bitching. The only thing we can control individually is our own behaviour, when was the last time you made a fun scenario for the benefit of someone else? Genuinely an open question. Not aimed at anyone specifically. 

 

[Bobinz]

Hostage taking should never equal automatic win. Nobody wants that. Nobody has ever said that. The thing is it needs to be fun for all parties. That's the bottom line. 

If you want to play the it's a game card you need to think about how you're contributing to someone else's fun. If this is truly a game and it's all good fun then everyone should be able to do what they like surely? The thing is that's not fun for all parties either as someone will end up bitching. The only thing we can control individually is our own behaviour, when was the last time you made a fun scenario for the benefit of someone else? Genuinely an open question. Not aimed at anyone specifically. 

Just yesterday, when an alarm tripped on life invader.

Cant tell you exactly what happen there, but my unit even congratz them for the amazing RP on TS and on OOC chat. Just saying that, we didnt even thought about an alarm because the story was so well made.
The moment you bring hostages into the equation, you automatically bring violence to the situation. Try to come up with a situation without an hostage. Keep in mind that is goes both ways when someone says "needs to be fun". Fun is a very relative, what one finds fun, another does not. For example, While most of the people in the server enjoy persuits, I do not enjoy them. So, taking this perspective, I would need to force a situation where there will be no persuits.. well the hostage takes love persuits.. we kinda are on a sticky situation.

People usually end up bicthing because they are not happy with the outcome, realistically speaking, most of the time it is because it didnt went the way they wanted to. Officers or the other party.

Like I use to say, crims are usually the one that create the scenario, when you take hostages to life invader, you create a scenario, so be also open to alternatives. Police most of the times need to reacts to the situations not create them. So, if it doesnt go your way it doesnt go your way. You win some, you lose some. On those last days police has been smoked a lot of times when outnumbered by gang members, some times we win some times we lose.

 

[MrRobeplay]

Hostage taking should never equal automatic win. Nobody wants that. Nobody has ever said that. The thing is it needs to be fun for all parties. That's the bottom line. 

If you want to play the it's a game card you need to think about how you're contributing to someone else's fun. If this is truly a game and it's all good fun then everyone should be able to do what they like surely? The thing is that's not fun for all parties either as someone will end up bitching. The only thing we can control individually is our own behaviour, when was the last time you made a fun scenario for the benefit of someone else? Genuinely an open question. Not aimed at anyone specifically. 

I actually love this comment because I've been making it my mission to make other people's RP experience the best I can and I hope to get much better. It's important to remind ourselves that RP starts with you and if you don't try because others aren't then we all lose.

 

[Chilli]

woah just read a part that said police have to be shot before they can shoot. 

ARE YOU OKAY?

Even in war there are shooting rules. However rules are simple. If there is a threat. Example THEY POINT THE GUN AT YOU WITH FINGER IN TRIGGER then police will shoot. as it is a threat. If your gun is lowered they will not shoot ofc because its not a immediate threat. but they will aim at you.

Police will not wait to be shot. Because one shot to the head and its over if first shot.

 

[Richardd]

I mean, you say it was the least likely, but it happens 9/10 times. Just have some fun with a chase. You don't have to win every situation x 

To put my 2p on this situation into the mix,

I personally believe that even if there is an 'opportunity to breach' because ONE door is not being held, police shouldn't try for this "sneak attack" they are so hungry for. Just allow for the roleplay more often.

If there is a valid reason to breach, fair enough. For example if they are saying "we are gonna kill the hostage in 5, 4, 3. or you hear a stab or gunshot. But I don't see a reason to ruin someones roleplay because they dont have 4 people there, instead have 2. You are basically saying that you want people to overpower the police.

I once heard Connor say at the big bank that he "reckons he can outfire their pistols with his smg" and that they were going to breach. He KNEW that it would end in a gunfight, yet still did it.

The mentality is WIN WIN WIN at the moment, whereas criminals should win situations sometimes. You know you can still win if you beat them in a chase, right? That would make it fun for all parties.

For perspective the situation mentioned, comprised of 2 hostage takers, with one upstaits with the hostage, one at the door negotiating. all 3 doors where unlocked, 2 unguarded withe the negotiator stood right up at the door leaving the staircase exposed. No real rp was given other than we have hostage we ant free passage blah blah. If someone puts the minimum into a situation they cant expect a desireable result. At the end of a day criminals who want to succeed should be thinking how their roleplay and tactics can be used to improve chances of success. Most situations such as banks or similar where good rp is provided ends with the robbers exiting the bank, similarly good planning has resulted in the same.

This idea of a win mentality is just so naive, we are a police force, we have objectives and goals that of course are aimed to be achieved, similarly gangs have their objectives that they aim to complete. If good roleplay is provided, the police will often put a side objectives to reward the RP but the idea criminals should be given an easy path to "win" through the bare minimum is crazy. It's not asif police are some almighty overpowered entity that cannot be beaten unless we allow it. 

As for the idea that firearms just want and look to instigate firefights, you seriously need to look at how firefights actually are for police. Does anyone actually think it is fun  to fight in a gunfight where we are stuck shooting on foot, whilst the gangs drive round in super cars with armoured backs, shooting at you when you cant hit them, wearing armoured helmets that tank multiple headshots and gang members running around without a gun in their hands only to pull it out and shoot you where if you had shot them you get a court case. Or running into a  building with many tight angles, hiding spots etc. I can assure you this is not fun! If firefights happened in the streets on foot more often then I would be inclined to agree that firearms may want a gunfight in some circumstances, same as it was on Arma. 

Also this idea of meta google docs just shows a lot of peoples mindsets - how can i do the bare minimum to get what i want. There is not meta RP, go into a situation and do some talking, it doesn't have to be an elaborate bugster style heist, and it doesn't have to have google docs. A who what how why when style thinking will do wonders. If you really want to go the extra mile you can think about how you can make it a new and exciting situation for everyone. 

Put some effort into what your doing and see what happens, then start to make these accusations if the same happens. Police, in this case firearms have to put so much effort into what they are doing and it can be draining when we get nothing back other than complaints because it didnt go the criminals way. Before you cast your judgement on others RP, look to your own first to see if its much better, then we wouldn't have all these complaints about the "state of rp" on the server.