Rules of engagement for bank robberies?

[William Antrim]

Now that bank robbery has become a thing I am really happy that we can do some absolutely top class RP. Some of the most fun I have ever had has been in these negotiations. Theyre brilliant. 

The bank robbery I went to today didnt quite meet those standards and honestly I was gutted. This is an OOC post so there will be no name dropping or finger pointing but there are a number of things which I would like to suggest to help make the whole thing more enjoyable for the players involved. 

I went to a bank robbery today and we got into a very good situation which started out a lot of fun. Unfortunately at some point during the fun the cops basically got bored (this is the most polite way i can think to put it) and fired into the bank indiscriminately killing various robbers and the hostage. This is not even close to how it goes in real life. All that happened was the cops got bored and wanted to kill someone to end the scenario. Im not going to get down into the weeds of the hows and the whys but basically it was pretty terrible RP. I fully expect people to stop reading at this point and jump right into the comments to give their 2ps worth. I can tell you that this part is going to be dealt with IC. 

What I want to do is try to take steps to ensure that this kind of terrible RP isnt repeated in the future because I have seen how this ends on other servers and it becomes essentially a shitshow. It stops being about RP and becomes about "winning at all costs". Thats not RP. If that is the way the PD want to do things at bank robberies then that is the way the criminal element of the server will change their tactics to suit and it will become a game of who can bring the most players to the bank for a fight. If you have 15-20 people armed with guns in the vicinity of a bank it stops being RP and just becomes a bloodbath. It wont be about the reward any more it will just be about the fight. Based on historical accounts of the evolution of the server so far thats not something that people want. I know some people are used to Altis previously and that has much more relaxed attitudes to gun battles but that just makes me think there are people who want to have their cake and eat it too. 

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So to avoid such issues in the future I would like to propose a few suggestions on the rules of engagement at bank robberies. 

Proposed rules:

PD are given the ability to turn off the alarm at the bank upon arrival at the scene - (no idea how this will work but it needs to be done to help promote/sustain good RP). 

No more than 4 robbers attend a bank robbery at one time. If someone attempts to bring more they are disciplined in accordance with server rules. 

If this rule is adhered to PD can then bring no more than 4 officers. 4v4 is more than enough people for some good RP.  

The area around the bank is designated a "no initiation zone" for PD, so they need to keep their heads on swivels effectively, just in case they are taken by surprise. By this I mean that in this situation and only this situation they can potentially be fired upon without warning. 

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I realise when people read this there will be abject horror at the idea of PD being killed and I can assure you this scenario does work very well as I have seen it in action previously (on a server with much stricter ROE than this server). PD still hold enough of an advantage over criminals (spike strips, body armour, assault rifles, faster cars) to not have to worry too much but this balances the playing field for the PLAYERS and creates a fair fight/RP scenario to play out for everyone. If you want robberies to continue to happen and really great RP to come out of them it needs to be FAIR for both sides. If its not fair then one side or the other will start to use shitty tactics to win at all costs and RP will fly out of the window. 

In these situations the first thing people forget is that we are all PLAYERS first and cops/criminals/whatever else second. That means we consent to RP and we trust each other not to be dickheads even though we have guns and can just shoot one another and cause them to have to lose valuable items (and time to replace said items). RP is about trust amongst a community and thats why so many communities are so closeknit. Its great when this works but its really shitty when it goes wrong. Today, for me, it went really wrong. I'd rather not see it happen again. 

Bring on the face palms and please lets have an open and frank discussion and try to get it right next time. i want to do bank robbery RP and i want it to be amazing for all involved. Ive got loads of really good ideas (my bias is creeping in again) to make it more enjoyable and more fun for all but it relies on the trust of the other party to make it good fun and not just about "winning". If every bank robbery ends up being like the one I went to today I just wont bother and thats pretty pants because I feel like it would be a big loss to community for all involved. 

Over to the Pepe hands. 

 

[Gray]

Firstly 100% turn that god damn alarm off hahah.

Secondly, not sure how i feel about the whole 4v4 situation for either sides. I personally see no issue with the numbers attending. I will agree that sometimes it feels that there is infinite numbers of Police attending.  I can already see the cops or robbers setting up in the area outwith, thereafter arguing that they are not within the bank robbery area so didn't breach the rule. Can lead to a whole lot of liaisons, arguments, etc.

Thirdly for the "no initiation zone" I dont really see this working out at all.. e.g. Police are in legion square and the alarm is triggered, cops that are there just shot in 0.5seconds afterwards. Mmmhm I dont know.

With that said i cant really support or object to this so wont be voting. Just wanted to add my views.

Further - I am of the opinion that yes in most scenarios it feels like the Police will "win" 99% of robberies through having a greater advantage through equipment, numbers, CONCRETE BARRIERS especially.

 

[Fluqi]

If this rule is adhered to PD can then bring no more than 4 officers. 4v4 is more than enough people for some good RP.  

People are probably going to assume I am saying this because I am a cop, but truly I have this opinion anyway...  Cops shouldn't be limited at all. Banks aren't meant to be fair. They're mean't to be a risk. It's intended to be difficult to rob a bank not a walk in the park. (even though everyone currently robs one every second of every day (and trust me, I get the pings for it) 

I personally don't think I've attended one enjoyable bank robbery yet. Either they've just ran out, got into a car and dipped, shot at me, or it's been ruined by idiots running around being twats. 

 

[William Antrim]

If you havent enjoyed any of the bank robberies then that alone makes it worth considering. 

The issue is not the frequency with which they get robbed as it is still very novel, it is the way in which it is conducted. People will soon realise its the best place to go for a non-consensual fight and just turn up for the fight to shoot at the cops if it continues the way it is. When the shooting starts the RP has honestly stopped and if all the cops do is shoot "becuase they thought there was a threat to life" (worst excuse ever) then people just wont bother to RP next time and will just either not rob banks (more coppers stood around legion square stroking their rifles) or murder every cop with 100m of the bank just to be on the safe side. 

This will cause an ocean of tears when the cops arent winning every time. Its a behavioural evolution. I dont want to be the prophet of doom but its happened before. The people who want to RP will ignore the PD (theyre easy to outwit outside of bank robberies anyway) and they will be left camping the meth pick up for some new guy who parks a hauler on there on his few days in the city. Its a slippery slope. 

On your last point fluqi if banks are meant to be this impossible then the reward needs to be much greater than the current risk. With a team of 4 criminals armed with the most basic firearms and body armour (vastly inferior to the cops) youre looking at £200k in gear easily vs a reward of £30-50k (which then has to be split 4 ways), by the numbers alone it just wont be worth it. You need a weapon to initiate a robbery and nobody wants to go to a gun fight with a knife as you may as well just go to the police station with it and try and hold someone up there for all the good it will do you! 

If someone can prove me wrong I will genuinely be amazed and eternally grateful. 

Right now its very new but in a month or two when it starts to get stale it will be RP or PVP. If the cops start losing it will be the same old thing as before - get rid of guns, its too hard etc. 

If its balanced and its fair then its 50/50 and its fair to all players. At the end of the day we are players. nobody plays a pvp game where the odds are stacked to one side. 

If the boot was on the other foot what do you think the cops would say if I brought every criminal in the city to a bank robbery with me every single time?  How long would it take for that to stop being fun for the cops? Less than 30 seconds I reckon. 

 

[Jordan]

How long would it take for that to stop being fun for the cops? Less than 30 seconds I reckon. 

its already not fun, there is a bank robbery every 10 seconds and the only rp ive seen from the robbers is we have a hostage go away or the hostage dies, i am extremely bored of this in general no brain work to it just get a gun and a hostage and people 90 percent of the time get away not to mention the amount of hostages that are apart of the gang of robbers. quite frankly if there was a good roleplayed robbery of the bank with more thought put into it then chances are it may end up being some extremely good quality rp. but for now its always either we have a hostage f off or he dies or some idiot triggering the alarm and running off.

 

[William Antrim]

Well in that case all I've seen so far is evidence that the proposal above will only improve the situation.  

It's a shame that last nights attempt ended because some idiot with an assault rifle got bored of it. 

Beyond that all I can suggest is that if the cops want good rp you're gonna have to give the criminals some good rp in return as we are all consenting players at the end of the day and I think too many people forget that when IC. 

 

[lukebaines16]

To be honest, this may seem cocky and i'm really not trying to be, but there's no real problems about how they are set up aside from the way the police react to the alarm. In the situations I and my crew have been in, they just end up sitting across the road and waiting it out most of the time. This way we are allowed to just get into cars and take the chase. I have also had an experience similar to you in the fact that police have shot straight through hostages before and i think that's just a discipline problem they have in themselves. 

But in the 13 or so bank heists we've done we've got away with all but 1 or 2, if anything its too easy.

 

[lukebaines16]

To be honest, this may seem cocky and i'm really not trying to be, but there's no real problems about how they are set up aside from the way the police react to the alarm. In the situations I and my crew have been in, they just end up sitting across the road and waiting it out most of the time. This way we are allowed to just get into cars and take the chase. I have also had an experience similar to you in the fact that police have shot straight through hostages before and i think that's just a discipline problem they have in themselves. 

But in the 13 or so bank heists we've done we've got away with all but 1 or 2, if anything its too easy.

Never mind, I've just been involved in one where the police failed to take the spike strips off the road as a demand in return for a safe hostage. Unless they HAVE to receive the hostage in order for our demands to be met i don't see how they can just not meet our demands, we had shown proof of life and promised the hostages safety. please let me know if WE were in the wrong by not handing over the hostage but as far as I know and have experienced in the numerous other bank heists that I've done, we've never had to hand over a hostage to get what we want.

 

[Jordan]

But in the 13 or so bank heists we've done we've got away with all but 1 or 2, if anything its too easy.

13 Bank robberies is a lot of bank robberies, these are things that are meant to be well thought out and prepared, but as of the moment people can just rob whichever bank they want get a hostage and get away with it just because they are bored, this whole post is just arguing that if there is a hostage involved police are then powerless to stop the robbery, a timer on the vault ie it cant be robbed for at least an hour after the bank is locked up and other banks cant be hit mid way through one already being robbed would be a massive help to the whole situation, and to mention the amount of police needed to rob needs a slight increase as of the moment it is too little, perhaps 7. as it is literally every 5 minutes the bank gets hit and it is the same story, an idiot just hitting the alarm or a hostage in the bank do as we say or the hostage is going to be killed. this allows 0 room for us to do anything at all about the situation.

i don't see how they can just not meet our demands

to me this just shows the mindset ive highlighted, every time its just we have a hostage and if you don't do as we say they die, what room do we have to do anything here, if im just being blind to it feel free to tell me what should be done by the police in these situations? Especially considering it is always the same groups getting away with it that repeat the same situation over and over again giving the same rp. and it just gets extremely boring for us.

 

[William Antrim]

If its the same people then you get wise to it and you tell them it's not gonna work like that. When you get another group doing something you can always give them some slack. If the group is giving you some fun then you can consider reciprocating. 

During our negotiation I gave the officer so many clues about how he could help the situation etc but he just didn't have a clue what he was doing. He wasn't reasonable, or positive in any way shape or form. He sounded like an Asian call centre worker reading off a script and sticking to it regardless of what went on around him. There was no negotiation it was just an argument. 

On dozens of occasions I said we aren't here to threaten or hurt anyone and I have a long storyline for why we there and even a name to use. He asked it once and then never used it again and never once referred to the story I laid out. 

From where I was stood I was doing my best to lead him down a certain storyline where we would have a peaceful resolution but he wasn't getting it at all and then just decided to open fire. That's not really discipline that's just someone being a twat. 

I'd like to thank alll of you for participating in the thread but I would also like to ask from a police/criminal perspective what would be "good" rp to you guys? 

I use inverted commas because I suspect it may be different for both sides. 

 

[lukebaines16]

13 Bank robberies is a lot of bank robberies, these are things that are meant to be well thought out and prepared, but as of the moment people can just rob whichever bank they want get a hostage and get away with it just because they are bored, this whole post is just arguing that if there is a hostage involved police are then powerless to stop the robbery, a timer on the vault ie it cant be robbed for at least an hour after the bank is locked up and other banks cant be hit mid way through one already being robbed would be a massive help to the whole situation, and to mention the amount of police needed to rob needs a slight increase as of the moment it is too little, perhaps 7. as it is literally every 5 minutes the bank gets hit and it is the same story, an idiot just hitting the alarm or a hostage in the bank do as we say or the hostage is going to be killed. this allows 0 room for us to do anything at all about the situation.

to me this just shows the mindset ive highlighted, every time its just we have a hostage and if you don't do as we say they die, what room do we have to do anything here, if im just being blind to it feel free to tell me what should be done by the police in these situations? Especially considering it is always the same groups getting away with it that repeat the same situation over and over again giving the same rp. and it just gets extremely boring for us.

Agreed about the bank robberies being done too much because people are bored and I agree with using the same situation with the hostage being extremely boring and repetitive for the police and maybe its just us having a lack of creation but if there's no proof of life whats stopping the police from storming the bank? In real life i'm sure the last thing that bank robbers want is a gunfight and they would probably ensure that by threatening a life, Even if they don't have one to threaten. If you are police can you tell me how it would go if we didn't threaten a hostages life? and tell me how else you think the robbers of a bank would be able to get out of it without a gunfight? @Jordan If you give a good example we would definitely use it as we (my group) don't want to see this server turn out like arma at all despite what you might think.

 

[Dan B]

Thanks for taking the time to make this suggestion! Your point regarding the bank alarm has been noted as I have also personally seen this effect the roleplay. In terms of the other rule suggestions they should be submitted via the rules feedback however my personal opinion is against the concept due to it restricting role-play situations to defined rules (one of my pet peeves). This post will be moved into rejected with the alarms noted.