Police Value of Life

[Dan Black]

This will be a suggestion that a lot of people will frown upon as well as agree with, but it is something that could potentially add a lot better RP in regards to "cop & crim" scenarios. 

From my perspective, as a gang member, there is a lot to loose when going to war with another gang, a robbery, a hostage situation, a prison break or assisting other gangs with anything that could lead to an arrest. The risk factor will always be there. Weapons are not cheap and every time you loose one, it is a lot of time spent to regain that. This does push gangs toward fighting their way out of a situation, because that is the only way out. Police have zero tolerance and want to get everyone apprehended, no matter the cost. That is just the problem. There is no cost to the individuals from the PD. This does take away from RP situations. 

I would like to mention 2 examples as to having people understand my perspective. 

We recently had a war not too long ago. We got pushed on our turf and fought back. I got into a fight with a guy that had a Uzi and I had a pistol. The situation ended in him putting me down and he won that 1vs1 situation, all the credit to him. Then 2 police officers come around the corner and just shoot him without saying a word to him. Firstly, he did not threaten them, he did not shoot at them, he had no beef with the police, it was gang related. Yes, some people would classify that as RDM, but the biggest issue is, that the police push into the middle of a gang fight and just start shooting at whoever they see. There are numerous situations similar to this and I can guarantee that I am not the only person, and we not the only gang that has experienced this. Police in real life would never just run into the middle of a gun fight. It is too unsafe, the situation firstly has to calm down before they can go in and investigate. Not run in guns blazing. If a gang wins a gunfight against another gang, they deserve the chance to get away, but that is not presented to them. This comes down to the police have nothing to loose. 

Secondly, something very recent. There was a hostage situation to which the police showed up to. Negotiations was underway and clearly ignored. More people got involved. The police then proceeded to push into the building, not valuing the life of the hostage or their own, because once again, nothing to loose. This escalated into a massive firefight, with every single cop dying. Where did anyone value their life there? But that is another topic altogether. 

The big problem with these scenarios is not that server rules are being broken through NVL, but the fact the the police have nothing to loose. They go in, die, respawn, get everything they lost back and jump back on duty. Their needs to be a risk factor involved for the police as well, something to loose. Gangs loose guns to the value of 100's of thousands. 

So this is my suggestion. If police member get shot and go down, or end up bleeding out. They need recovery time. They need to go off shift for the remainder of the time until server restart or at least a given period of time. This will create a risk factor for police as well, thinking twice before acting. This would mean the recent hostage situation they would have negotiated that the hostage is released and the gang member were allowed to go freely. Yes, there could have been a police chase initiated afterwards, but the situation was escalated immediately. What happened to that hostage? Is it not a success to have gotten the hostage out safely even if people got away? Was that no the whole mission? Or did everyone just go there with the intent to shoot? It is an RP server, not GTA online. 

This will greatly increase RP situations, because everyone would end up having something to loose. This is not so gangs can always win, this is purely for structure in police life also carrying value for themselves. 

 

[TacDad]

I agree in principle the cops do need a considerable consequence should they die, Die being the key word. Perhaps if they are downed they need a recovery period before they can go back on duty. Because currently it’s ah I died let’s go back to PD and gear back up with no second thought. This has been the way on every server I’ve been a cop. This server stands out from the crowd for all the right reasons so the idea of a consequence would suit well. 
 

to suggest they leave cops for the remainder of a session if they die is a bit harsh in my view but I get where your going. 
 

I don’t have any of the answers to this but as a community I’m sure a work around could be achieved should the staff deem it needed 

 

[Joshua]

I will type up on my views on the rest of the suggestion later. 

But I will make it clear the police get NOTHING for free.

We pay for it, yes our equipment is readily available, but that’s down to us being the POLICE who need readily available equipment to combat the gangs, police the server and actually roleplay as a police force 

 

[Haza]

Obviously police don’t get everything for FREE but it basically is like that. When you take something out of the armoury, money is taken out of the police budget. However from what I know/imagine the police budget is very very large meaning that taking weapons constantly out will barely damage the budget. This is where the point of police can just respawn and get everything back for no cost comes from. Yes police need access to this to combat situations however it’s too easy for them. Compared to a gang member who have to pay for a pistol which is like 240k, a lot of time is needed to get the money and purchase it. If they then loose it that’s a valuable asset gone. This is why people are hating the fact that a lot of Time the police just rush into the situation and don’t think about the long term consequence because if they loose their items they can just get them back for an extremely small cost. And then when they do rush into something and it doesn’t go their way it seems to end up on the forums.

 

[Albert Winsford]

I agree the police do need their items readily available as without it they are not the police force, but there does indeed need to be a risk/reward factor on both sides. Perhaps an half hour cool down where they can't take out items and are clocked out of shift, so much so that it's not too long that police are forced to log off due to boredom but not too short that they can dive right back in to a situation and start blasting away, but then gangs should have something similar for balance. Yeah it's rubbish losing a gun but at the end of the day you're a criminal and you took the risk in the first place to aquire an illegal weapon and it's always going to be a risk carrying it as with an civilian who is carrying a weapon.

 

[Dan Black]

I don't mean it in the way of police not having access, yes they need access to weapons at all times, but adding a risk factor, something for them to think about as to add value to their life. 

Valuing your life on the server is mostly based on what you carrying on you. I know that going into a gang war that I might loose whatever I am carrying on me, and that makes my decision less rational. I think before I do. Most people would agree on that. 

So adding something for police to have that risk factor is what I mean. Could be anything. And that will mean more people will be able to enjoy the RP. 

It does take time to make the money to buy a gun back, and that is just a pistol, some things are a lot more expensive. So yes it is a risk that is being taken. What is that risk factor for the police? What I suggested could just be a route of having something set up, I just feel there needs to be something that would make police think about situations. 

It is also a choice to be a criminal. But the implications of getting caught is major. Couple hours spent grinding to make the money back, as well as a prison sentence. Yes, that is what happens in real life. But what happens in real life when a officer gets shot? Something needs to be there for them to value their life as well. 

 

[JackJohnson]

Sorry but I strongly disagree with this - yes I agree that there needs to be some kind of risk/reward factors involved but I do not agree that Police should pay the price by having to go off duty or anything like that, reasons below. 
 

1. Quite simply - the gangs that lose weapons etc… have initiated the RP whether that’s robbery, kidnapping etc… and have made a choice to take that risk. The Police have not, Police are simply responding to an alarm or a dispatch and doing their job. 
 

2. After shootouts etc… there would simply be very little or no police on duty which would affect a lot of peoples RP. Couldn’t report vehicles stolen, couldn’t rob places etc… plus no police to come help if you are attacked or anything. No police to impound vehicles for mechanics to work. 

3. The equipment is not free - the police pay for it and if you think Police command don’t watch this stuff then you are mistaken. 
 

There is more reasons that I’m sure others will say, but that’s my main points. 

 

[Tigerforce]

Okay, this is already a rule regarding the value of life. From what I am reading its about the value of equipment.

I do agree not all police are the best for valuing their lives, just as not all gang members are great at valuing theirs. Regarding equipment it comes out of the police budget which I am not going to pretend I know how much it is as the last thing I remember was that it was around 9 mil however high chance that would have changed BUT that being said half of the equipment we have costs a lot for example the helicopters costs 1-3 mil give or take, Now regarding situations and police just running in, majority of times i've seen this happen it's because everyone out of colours so we presume its 1-5 then find out its around 30. In times where we know exactly how many are there we have waited and just not bothered to go in so when you say police are not valuing their lives can you just actually say is it because they are KNOWINGLY going into a situation with lower numbers against a large gang with colours OR is it more gangs out of colours and police with a large force goes in just to find out that there is more than expected.

Regarding the cool down i disagree with it as if the police station is attacked we are allowed to breach NLR to defend the PD but with said suggestion we wouldn't be able to “Perhaps an half hour cool down where they can't take out items and are clocked out of shift”

 

[GPlumb]

This will be a suggestion that a lot of people will frown upon as well as agree with, but it is something that could potentially add a lot better RP in regards to "cop & crim" scenarios. 

From my perspective, as a gang member, there is a lot to loose when going to war with another gang, a robbery, a hostage situation, a prison break or assisting other gangs with anything that could lead to an arrest. The risk factor will always be there. Weapons are not cheap and every time you loose one, it is a lot of time spent to regain that. This does push gangs toward fighting their way out of a situation, because that is the only way out. Police have zero tolerance and want to get everyone apprehended, no matter the cost. That is just the problem. There is no cost to the individuals from the PD. This does take away from RP situations. 

I would like to mention 2 examples as to having people understand my perspective. 

We recently had a war not too long ago. We got pushed on our turf and fought back. I got into a fight with a guy that had a Uzi and I had a pistol. The situation ended in him putting me down and he won that 1vs1 situation, all the credit to him. Then 2 police officers come around the corner and just shoot him without saying a word to him. Firstly, he did not threaten them, he did not shoot at them, he had no beef with the police, it was gang related. Yes, some people would classify that as RDM, but the biggest issue is, that the police push into the middle of a gang fight and just start shooting at whoever they see. There are numerous situations similar to this and I can guarantee that I am not the only person, and we not the only gang that has experienced this. Police in real life would never just run into the middle of a gun fight. It is too unsafe, the situation firstly has to calm down before they can go in and investigate. Not run in guns blazing. If a gang wins a gunfight against another gang, they deserve the chance to get away, but that is not presented to them. This comes down to the police have nothing to loose. 

Secondly, something very recent. There was a hostage situation to which the police showed up to. Negotiations was underway and clearly ignored. More people got involved. The police then proceeded to push into the building, not valuing the life of the hostage or their own, because once again, nothing to loose. This escalated into a massive firefight, with every single cop dying. Where did anyone value their life there? But that is another topic altogether. 

The big problem with these scenarios is not that server rules are being broken through NVL, but the fact the the police have nothing to loose. They go in, die, respawn, get everything they lost back and jump back on duty. Their needs to be a risk factor involved for the police as well, something to loose. Gangs loose guns to the value of 100's of thousands. 

So this is my suggestion. If police member get shot and go down, or end up bleeding out. They need recovery time. They need to go off shift for the remainder of the time until server restart or at least a given period of time. This will create a risk factor for police as well, thinking twice before acting. This would mean the recent hostage situation they would have negotiated that the hostage is released and the gang member were allowed to go freely. Yes, there could have been a police chase initiated afterwards, but the situation was escalated immediately. What happened to that hostage? Is it not a success to have gotten the hostage out safely even if people got away? Was that no the whole mission? Or did everyone just go there with the intent to shoot? It is an RP server, not GTA online. 

This will greatly increase RP situations, because everyone would end up having something to loose. This is not so gangs can always win, this is purely for structure in police life also carrying value for themselves. 

I'm sorry but with regards to the situation last night that is borderline slander. We did listen to the negotiations and made a deal if it wasn't for someone in another gang shooting at police and causing an explosion the deal would have been going. For the record the deal was everyone gets free passage in exchange for the release of a hostage if it wasn't for someone kicking off something that was already a tense standoff everyone would have been fine. So I suggest before you start making rogue accusations you at least try and find out the other side of the story. No negotiations were ignored we even came to a deal till someone decides to break the tension shooting at police and blowing us a gas canister. I'm happy to discuss the situation in a TS. 

In regards to the suggestion I actually quite like the idea of maybe a 20 mins cool down maybe either clock off duty or restricted to pd sort of duties I feel like that's a fair fine for actually dying as that doesnt happen that often. But in regards to the above I would appreciate it if the gangs spoke to the police before defacing the people that play police.

 

[VeikkQ]

Sorry but I strongly disagree with this - yes I agree that there needs to be some kind of risk/reward factors involved but I do not agree that Police should pay the price by having to go off duty or anything like that, reasons below. 
 

1. Quite simply - the gangs that lose weapons etc… have initiated the RP whether that’s robbery, kidnapping etc… and have made a choice to take that risk. The Police have not, Police are simply responding to an alarm or a dispatch and doing their job. 
 

2. After shootouts etc… there would simply be very little or no police on duty which would affect a lot of peoples RP. Couldn’t report vehicles stolen, couldn’t rob places etc… plus no police to come help if you are attacked or anything. No police to impound vehicles for mechanics to work. 

3. The equipment is not free - the police pay for it and if you think Police command don’t watch this stuff then you are mistaken. 
 

There is more reasons that I’m sure others will say, but that’s my main points. 

I would say maybe dev. suggestion for anybody taking too much damage (is it a gang member or police, NHS, G6) server would Perma kill your character (or locked for a week, like what priority quee does, it would be fear for everybody. ) (of course it would need balance sine police will kill more since they have "seen too much etch"). 

I might give medicks more RP And you would value your life.   

Would make it fear for everybody and for NHS.  

Instead of locking factions, not able to play as we want to. I'm on this server to play as police and I don't want to be locked out be able to patrol because, I got killed after I Was taken hostage, etch. 

 

 

[Dan Black]

Just a suggestion from my side. I was not involved in the situation, just a hear say thing. And whatever the risk is for police is not decided by me or anyone else, admins can discuss that. I am just suggesting a risk in order to improve RP for everyone. But thanks for everyone adding input on this.

 

[Zulufighter]

-1

I understand the frustration with police officers not valuing lives and this is something that needs to continuously improved with whitelisted factions needing to have the highest RP standard however I feel neither your point about officers waiting to get involved in a situation or the idea of officers having a cooldown makes sense. 

If you had a active situation where gangs are fighting each other then police need to intervene as soon as they have appropriate numbers otherwise as the gunfight continues there is increased risk of bystanders being injured, they cant just stand by waiting for gangs to be done although there could be better efforts before they get involved although do you want to get in a situation where the police are having to come and initiate on both parties like it's Altis?

Secondly the polices main advantage is access to equipment and manpower, in theory when an officer is killed at a gunfight another officer comes along, we're already limited in police response because of the numbers of people playing police and allowed on the server in reality you would have a significantly larger response to a major situation and this itself works to balance it, artificially doing it by making the officers unable to play would ruin the balance.

Also would you want this to apply to all sides not just police?

 

[Johnathon Reeds]

Sorry, did I read this right? Your suggestion is to stop police from playing the game when they get shot? How about when civs get downed they can't do anything till next restart?

 

[SixtyTwoSixx]

Its hard to do anything on the server when its 5 gangs vs Police, so i do not know what you are talking about valuing life most of the time we do not get a chance its literally hands up or die 90% of the time cause most of the gangs cannot and will not RP a situation, and then blame the police for a situation that goes bad and ends up in reports. yes sometimes within the police a few a win hungry which is fine and dandy but crims are also very win hungry cause there afraid to lose there 300k Handgun so they will go leaps and bounds to try and survive. its a vicious circle unfortunately. all the crims want on the server is the police to roll over and not do anything at all and then get mad when we do,  do something about a situation.

 

[CodyLtd]

Cops get shot wayy too often for this to even be considered by a sane person, as we are the people that get robbed every time we spend 5 mins out our vehicle in a high traffic area. Also reducing the amount of police on duty would make no sense, as this would mean that a PD for an entire city would have no one on duty, as there isnt as much of us as you think. Also if you want to complain about valuing life maybe convince the gangs to actually stop when they have an MP5 pointed at them. 

 

[Liam]

There is most likely 20/25 cops online at the same time to deal with 225/230 criminals. This suggestion will not solve anything but make the server lawless and KOTH like what it almost is, IMO.

 

[Nazgul]

I'm gonna keep it simple a -1 this wont sort anything

There is most likely 20/25 cops online at the same time to deal with 225/230 criminals. This suggestion will not solve anything but make the server lawless and KOTH like what it almost is, IMO.

this is what would happen if police where to be put on a cool down or something and free for all KOTH lawless state.

also from my experience i've seen a lot of cops value their lives and hostages lives where most criminals are let go when they have a hostage no guarantee they won't be chased later if they do leave the hostage as that is the trump card for criminals in that situation but i feel there is a lot of baseless hate towards the police with no evidence to support the accusations of not valuing their lives I'm not denying there are cops who don't value their lives because there definitely is i've just haven't seen it yet.

but criminals have put themselves in the situation to be stop and search and resulting in the gunfight but cops should not have to suffer the consequences of a criminal doing a criminal activity if they pass maybe something needs to happen with a consequence for police but i don't think it will do anything to change how police conduct themselves to tackle crime  and i wont stop trojan from doing its job from taking guns off the street with or without violence with within the guide of the national decision making. 

at the end of the day police aren't a gang they are a responder to a dispatch that being a 999 call or a local call. we don't go to gang member's to cause problems if they are doing nothing.

 

[Dan Black]

Sorry, did I read this right? Your suggestion is to stop police from playing the game when they get shot? How about when civs get downed they can't do anything till next restart?

If you read it right then no, that is not what I said.

Let things go as they are and more and more reports will come from people. Both sides included. I have had numerous situations, and from people commenting here. But I dont want to go around reporting people, because then yes, they cant play the game. I have made a suggestion, take it or leave it. My suggestion doesnt mean anything will change. It might just become that combat rez is fine by server rules for the police. This I have also seen, but not reported. Even with all the footage.

This is not a debate about everything wrong between different sides, just a suggestion to make police think twice about a situation, as crims do. Yes it is a choice on whichever character you play. All I am saying, are officers worried about dying? What are you loosing for dying? What do crims loose when they die or get arrested with a gun. They loose a lot of money. And yes, that is what escalates some situations I agree. Because the crims dont wanna loose what they have on them. But what are cops thinking in those situations that they could potentially die.

 

[Nazgul]

If you read it right then no, that is not what I said.

Let things go as they are and more and more reports will come from people. Both sides included. I have had numerous situations, and from people commenting here. But I dont want to go around reporting people, because then yes, they cant play the game. I have made a suggestion, take it or leave it. My suggestion doesnt mean anything will change. It might just become that combat rez is fine by server rules for the police. This I have also seen, but not reported. Even with all the footage.

This is not a debate about everything wrong between different sides, just a suggestion to make police think twice about a situation, as crims do. Yes it is a choice on whichever character you play. All I am saying, are officers worried about dying? What are you loosing for dying? What do crims loose when they die or get arrested with a gun. They loose a lot of money. And yes, that is what escalates some situations I agree. Because the crims dont wanna loose what they have on them. But what are cops thinking in those situations that they could potentially die.

what we lose when we die is the assets of what we are carrying we have a budget and whenever something isn't returned or lost it doesn't come back into our funds until the end of the months SENIOR POLICE DO CORRECT ME IF WRONG. but nonetheless every officer that die's suffers the same to all officers thats less £XXXX in the police bank and once that budget is gone we are on foot patrols until we get our funds back whenever that may be.

for example dogs cost us a lot of money and our DSU command lets us know every meeting hence why we can't take them a firearms situation as they will die if targeted. which will cost us money every action i like to believe the police make is calculated and is communicated by carefully selected SGT+ command where they can make the right call on the what the situation is same with TFC whom are trained to deal with high tension situations where all lives are considered officers, hostages, surrounding locals and players.

but this suggestions wont help to change or help either side but to cause more issues