Metagaming of name within the PNC & prison system (FIVEM)

[Nazgul]

Detailed Rule Suggestion:

so bit of back story (I made a new character early hours of this morning 01/08/21 ditched my id card did some stuff got arrested taken to MRPD no ID and told fake names my actual name never given out to anyone in the city only I and I alone know my name so I'm in prison I get in contact with a officer whom sounded high ranked who says my name my real character name like its common knowledge and refuses to say how he got my name and pokes fun at how he got it.) 

so the rule suggestions is that there is something within the PNC or prison system that tells police our real character name even though our real names have not been told this is major meta gaming for police as they get our names on illegitimate way abusing a flaw within the system which needs to be stopped as this has ruined my intentions for my characters way of roleplay

Outline how your rule will improve the server/community:

this rule will help gangs and criminals that wish to remain anonymous to the police through fake names by stopping police from getting our real names through a flaw in the PNC and prison system

Think about any bad points your rule suggestion might have:

there are no bad points about this. this should not be a viable way to get a name

What punishment if any should breach of this rule have:

similar to metagaming and police disciplinary action to the officer that dose this this shouldn't be acceptable for RPUK nor the LSPD 

 

[_Darren]

I completely agree with this. There needs to be a change to the system, and a way for police checks to be audited, as per a real life scenario.
I can see how your scenario would've ruined your roleplay.

To add to this, mine has been ruined in a similar way.

I've had multiple instances (the latest being this evening) of police officers getting my full name from their rear ANPR camera when I pull up behind them.
Either that or they're doing a PNC check, which they shouldn't be able to do without legal reasoning to do so. Me just pulling up behind them isn't enough to warrant them doing a check on me and my vehicle to know any more information than that.
This officer tonight didn't know me. I pulled up behind him and he starts going "Hello Darren". Which is a total abuse of power and wouldn't be possible in a real life scenario without fear of repercussions, somebody checking that PNC check etc.
It's not acceptable that just because I am a citizen of the city, a police officer can just decide he wants to know more about me without any reasoning to do so.

 

[Nazgul]

I completely agree with this. There needs to be a change to the system, and a way for police checks to be audited, as per a real life scenario.
I can see how your scenario would've ruined your roleplay.

To add to this, mine has been ruined in a similar way.

I've had multiple instances (the latest being this evening) of police officers getting my full name from their rear ANPR camera when I pull up behind them.
Either that or they're doing a PNC check, which they shouldn't be able to do without legal reasoning to do so. Me just pulling up behind them isn't enough to warrant them doing a check on me and my vehicle to know any more information than that.
This officer tonight didn't know me. I pulled up behind him and he starts going "Hello Darren". Which is a total abuse of power and wouldn't be possible in a real life scenario without fear of repercussions, somebody checking that PNC check etc.
It's not acceptable that just because I am a citizen of the city, a police officer can just decide he wants to know more about me without any reasoning to do so.

Agreed 

 

[Chilli]

I completely agree with this. There needs to be a change to the system, and a way for police checks to be audited, as per a real life scenario.
I can see how your scenario would've ruined your roleplay.

To add to this, mine has been ruined in a similar way.

I've had multiple instances (the latest being this evening) of police officers getting my full name from their rear ANPR camera when I pull up behind them.
Either that or they're doing a PNC check, which they shouldn't be able to do without legal reasoning to do so. Me just pulling up behind them isn't enough to warrant them doing a check on me and my vehicle to know any more information than that.
This officer tonight didn't know me. I pulled up behind him and he starts going "Hello Darren". Which is a total abuse of power and wouldn't be possible in a real life scenario without fear of repercussions, somebody checking that PNC check etc.
It's not acceptable that just because I am a citizen of the city, a police officer can just decide he wants to know more about me without any reasoning to do so.

I mena we have to anpr check cars manually as it doesn't auto ping Warents or stolen cars. so the only way to find them is manually check you

 

[Jason]

I agree there does need to be some information to support knowing your name. It could be an officer has some suspicion you might be another character from your voice, but from that alone further checks should be done. On this incident it’s not an old character but a new one.

However, unless some magic has occurred in PNC since I last used it I can’t foresee how they would have identified your new character name. Clearly something has occurred but of course you won’t have any forensics and you’re not known, so certainly raises suspicion how they know unless you were in your car?

The comments about police having to have a reason to check your car is nonsense. Driving a vehicle on a road will see officers have a policing purpose to conduct a PNC search on your vehicle and name. The same reason cops don’t need a reason specifically to stop you; they can stop you to confirm your details. ANPR is normally automatic (hence the first letter) but it’s not the case on the server, but there is no reason why a Constable cannot search your car details either manually or through the ANPR system. Saying your name out loud from this point is the stranger thing, but even then it might not be the owner in the car and I can’t see a huge issue with this? If you’re trying to be anonymous, drive cars that don’t belong to you.

 

[GPlumb]

My personal opinion on this is that in reality the police have many, many ways of finding out your registered name that aren't available to police in game, and as such it almost feels a bit powergamey to me not eventually informing an officer your name as you are technically forcing them down that Rp Path of them not being able to write the report and continue the RP (That's just my opinion).

On the note of the prison system I think it's perfectly reasonable as I doubt anyone has made it to prison in the UK without there actual name being known. I believe the officer may have got this through the prison computer which does tell us the people who have been incarcerateds name and sentence left. But as I said before I think it is entirely unreasonable for someone to (in RP) make it through the entire custody process, judiciary system and eventually into prison with either a false alias or no name at all

Again this is all my opinion and if anyone wants me to discuss and explain I would be happy to

 

[Nazgul]

My personal opinion on this is that in reality the police have many, many ways of finding out your registered name that aren't available to police in game, and as such it almost feels a bit powergamey to me not eventually informing an officer your name as you are technically forcing them down that Rp Path of them not being able to write the report and continue the RP (That's just my opinion).

On the note of the prison system I think it's perfectly reasonable as I doubt anyone has made it to prison in the UK without there actual name being known. I believe the officer may have got this through the prison computer which does tell us the people who have been incarcerateds name and sentence left. But as I said before I think it is entirely unreasonable for someone to (in RP) make it through the entire custody process, judiciary system and eventually into prison with either a false alias or no name at all

Again this is all my opinion and if anyone wants me to discuss and explain I would be happy to

id have to disagree if the police were that desperate to get my name they would use what they have available to get it not use a flaw within the PNC and the prison to metagame my character name and police in IRL would be able to get my name through number plate house address and what not and other means. it would be the same for anyone else whom wished to be anonymous to the police but due to the pnc or prison your forcefully out of roleplay metagaming and power gaming to get access to that name which is not how police should work at it most certainly not power gaming of a criminal to withhold his name from the police if they wanted it they would look into aliases friends allies contacts on phone it shouldn't be handed to them on a silver plate.

 

[GPlumb]

id have to disagree if the police were that desperate to get my name they would use what they have available to get it not use a flaw within the PNC and the prison to metagame my character name and police in IRL would be able to get my name through number plate house address and what not and other means. it would be the same for anyone else whom wished to be anonymous to the police but due to the pnc or prison your forcefully out of roleplay metagaming and power gaming to get access to that name which is not how police should work at it most certainly not power gaming of a criminal to withhold his name from the police if they wanted it they would look into aliases friends allies contacts on phone it shouldn't be handed to them on a silver plate.

I fail to see how using the PNC is metagaming as all that information on there is found out within RP in reality the police would have a list of almost everyone in the country so when that name is searched it would come up. I can see where you are coming from in regards to it coming up on the prison computer. However you say about them looking into aliases and friends contacts we cannot do that we cannot seize your phone and we cannot look into things as deeply as police do. keep in mind this is a game and police are not paid. In reality police have the right to hold you in custody for 24hrs to allow for them to conduct there enquiries and i think i can safely say no one on this island will want to wait 24hrs just to be identified so there has to be a balance. 

Furthermore, you say the police should use what they have available. which really is nothing for a new charecter apart from asking them and playing the waiting game. We cant fingerprint you as there are no forensic records we cant do enquiries onto other people as we simply do not have that information and gathering that would be near on impossible due to the meta and the general limitations of the game. We cannot search house addresses to see who owns what house (again we dont have access to that). We simply do not have the tools to do anything and at the end of the day it is a game and i dont think many people would happily sit in a cell for 2 hours while police do enquiries. As NHS people get annoyed when we take them to hospital to get them up as it takes 5 minutes

 

[Nazgul]

I fail to see how using the PNC is metagaming as all that information on there is found out within RP in reality the police would have a list of almost everyone in the country so when that name is searched it would come up. I can see where you are coming from in regards to it coming up on the prison computer. However you say about them looking into aliases and friends contacts we cannot do that we cannot seize your phone and we cannot look into things as deeply as police do. keep in mind this is a game and police are not paid. In reality police have the right to hold you in custody for 24hrs to allow for them to conduct there enquiries and i think i can safely say no one on this island will want to wait 24hrs just to be identified so there has to be a balance. 

Furthermore, you say the police should use what they have available. which really is nothing for a new charecter apart from asking them and playing the waiting game. We cant fingerprint you as there are no forensic records we cant do enquiries onto other people as we simply do not have that information and gathering that would be near on impossible due to the meta and the general limitations of the game. We cannot search house addresses to see who owns what house (again we dont have access to that). We simply do not have the tools to do anything and at the end of the day it is a game and i dont think many people would happily sit in a cell for 2 hours while police do enquiries. As NHS people get annoyed when we take them to hospital to get them up as it takes 5 minutes

By I’m saying pnc due to I don’t know where they are getting my actual name from I suspect prison from what people tell me I know how the one works it’s got what has been given to the police and if I have to sit in a cell for two hours to get away with my name not being known then that is what I will do. Also police can get knowledge to who owns what house but has to go through the court system same as a warrant to get a search warrant on a house again these things should be sort for in roleplay not just given to you for a fault within the system ether in the pnc or the prison the fact a officer found my name and said it as common knowledge should not of happens due to none knowing my name in the first place

 

[GPlumb]

By I’m saying pnc due to I don’t know where they are getting my actual name from I suspect prison from what people tell me I know how the one works it’s got what has been given to the police and if I have to sit in a cell for two hours to get away with my name not being known then that is what I will do. Also police can get knowledge to who owns what house but has to go through the court system same as a warrant to get a search warrant on a house again these things should be sort for in roleplay not just given to you for a fault within the system ether in the pnc or the prison the fact a officer found my name and said it as common knowledge should not of happens due to none knowing my name in the first place

It is likely they got your name through the prison computer. Which as said before i dont believe anyone can get to prison without there actual name being found out. There is also the fact that you say we can go through the courts but we cannot ask who owns this house due to the fact one it would take too long (there is no way to summons someone to court at a later date) and two we have to ask the courts does this person own this house they cannot tell us a name otherwise that would make house raids far to easy. So when we go to the courts we cannot ask who owns this house. Even if the courts did i dont believe anyone would give there house address to police for them to even put it forward to the courts.

 

[Nazgul]

It is likely they got your name through the prison computer. Which as said before i dont believe anyone can get to prison without there actual name being found out. There is also the fact that you say we can go through the courts but we cannot ask who owns this house due to the fact one it would take too long (there is no way to summons someone to court at a later date) and two we have to ask the courts does this person own this house they cannot tell us a name otherwise that would make house raids far to easy. So when we go to the courts we cannot ask who owns this house. Even if the courts did i dont believe anyone would give there house address to police for them to even put it forward to the courts.

so do you think its acceptable for someone who has never said their real name to a police officer and taken you to the police station asked you your real; name and then take you to prison ether way while still not knowing your character name until your in prison which then reveals there name to police through the prison system which is metagaming for police to use that information.

 

[GPlumb]

so do you think its acceptable for someone who has never said their real name to a police officer and taken you to the police station asked you your real; name and then take you to prison ether way while still not knowing your character name until your in prison which then reveals there name to police through the prison system which is metagaming for police to use that information.

I definitly do not think they should send you to prison to find out your name however if another officer arrives and is unaware that you didnt give your name i hardly think it is there fault. I mean personally I would just leave the person in custody until either they identify themselves or 24hours has passed. But as i said we need to also address to the servers meta. If you do not want the police to know your name, A) do not do illegal things, B) dont get caught doing said things as in reality even if you refuse to provide your name the police would not have too much of a hard time finding it out, through phone seizures details of your arrest (If you were with people) things that arent possible within GTA/FIVEM

 

[Nazgul]

I definitly do not think they should send you to prison to find out your name however if another officer arrives and is unaware that you didnt give your name i hardly think it is there fault. I mean personally I would just leave the person in custody until either they identify themselves or 24hours has passed. But as i said we need to also address to the servers meta. If you do not want the police to know your name, A) do not do illegal things, B) dont get caught doing said things as in reality even if you refuse to provide your name the police would not have too much of a hard time finding it out, through phone seizures details of your arrest (If you were with people) things that arent possible within GTA/FIVEM

i feel like your excuse is give the police your name and just serve time in prison or don't do illegal things. if i wish to be anonymous to the police for my police character then that's what i will do its not power gaming it remaining anonymous to the police under fake names or street names i shouldn't have to be identified through prison which is metagaming to then use that name for identification or do you justify police metagaming to get characters names (also i was taken to prison when i told fake names ether way by Chris lee so take that as you will have nothing against being taken to prison with out my real name but if that's against police procedure that's for u to sort out my biggest concern is that a officer abused the fact that my name was available to be seen when i haven't mentioned my name in roleplay to anyone but mentioned it in roleplay through a phone call that's my point I'm getting across i don't care if that mean police have to actually investigate who i actually am it shouldn't happen its the same as someone going up to a officer saying his name without ever coming across him/her and never hearing the name from anyone else. do you understand where im coming from with this as its blatant metagaming

 

[Chilli]

and knowing full well we can not do any background checks to find name isn't power gaming there's 2 sides. 

what happens if everyone adopts your ways. I doubt much police would even bother playing if 90% was spent in cells because some guy said they are called John Smith 

I agree that pnc shouldn't be used but I also believe there should be a rule about refusing to give name until new features for us to find out. Because until then it's one massive cluster fuck of oh your powegaming no you're meta etc 

 

[DJ]

and knowing full well we can not do any background checks to find name isn't power gaming there's 2 sides. 

what happens if everyone adopts your ways. I doubt much police would even bother playing if 90% was spent in cells because some guy said they are called John Smith 

I agree that pnc shouldn't be used but I also believe there should be a rule about refusing to give name until new features for us to find out. Because until then it's one massive cluster fuck of oh your powegaming no you're meta etc 

That's a thing in real life though, if a suspect isn't on DNA or a record there not going to know there name, "John Doe" has been sent to prison before.

 

[Chilli]

That's a thing in real life though, if a suspect isn't on DNA or a record there not going to know there name, "John Doe" has been sent to prison before.

but in real life they can use their phone and all other stuff nazgul has said. If that was in server no issues but its not we are mechanically limited 

 

[Jason]

I get the point you're making, but I also feel you're taking advantage of the fact police have no in-game means of identifying you because of limitations, despite IRL options that could exist.

If a criminal cannot be identified, there is a good chance they'll be put on remand - that means you'll be in prison before trial, which wouldn't go ahead until you were identified. Do you want your character remanded until they figure out who you are (which is never, based on the options available)?

If someone is not identified through forensics, which is often the easiest and quickest route then some more details are taken. I cannot disclose exactly what happens and the exact tools but systems in place to complete facial recognition, finger prints, biometics across databases across the world through INTERPOL etc. You will have had to have lived a life where you have never provided this information to any of the countries that participate in this, never applied for asylum, never applied for a passport or identity card. 

While that amount of work is going on - where you found with a phone? If yes, is it on a contract, what numbers has it text or called or who has called/text it. Where was it purchased? What cell sites has it hit? Do you have a bank account? If yes, where have you been, what have you purchased, ever paid for fuel? What car was you driving then.

It's very easy on the server for someone to refuse details and not have offences of murder, kidnap not put against their name because the cops don't know who you are and they have no means of countering that or doing anything about it. I feel the effort of you being identified at the point you go to prison isn't too unfair.

 

[DJ]

but in real life they can use their phone and all other stuff nazgul has said. If that was in server no issues but its not we are mechanically limited 

if they don't have a phone on them though and have just come into the city like this and the first tim ethey have been caught then there not going to know anything surely? i get large known criminals giving out "John Smith" or getting your cars plates ANPR, but a fresh Person in a local car if there clever enough shouldn't be able to get known from some Prison in game system

 

[Shepherd Kingston]

Jason’s got it spot on imo