Increase Impound Time / Don't Scrap Cars

[Terry Ball]

Detailed Suggestion:

As someone who's played a while as police and made the switch the crim for a while now, wanted to open up a discussion on the community's thoughts on the scrapping of cars involved in wars/fights. 

Firstly, I completely understand that scrapping a car as a consequence of crim behaviour makes RP sense.

On the flipside, there have been complaints about things to do other than "grind" for money (which is needed in a lot of RP situations) as a crim (buy weapons, vehicles, anything really!) and it almost feels from an outside perspective (I've not been involved in a war as yet) that crims are expected to be at war with each other and not get along. With that being said, they do this and then get their vehicles scrapped and the grind for money starts again. (Hours or IRL gameplay time)

Instead, could crim vehicles be impounded for a longer duration and not scrapped?

The release fee should also be either set as a % of the vehicle's value, or kept at a low rate, so the "grind for money" aspect is avoided and the RP value in gang activity is maintained/restored. By that I mean time spent playing on the server is spent engaging in quality RP and not hours at a time grinding out taxi jobs to build some cash back up after a war with another gang. This is surely something that would surely satisfy both police and crim RPers? 

This would "give something" for crims to do, because at the moment if they're too passive at risk of losing their guns/vehicles, eventually the police are going to find the 999 calls they're responding to being well... less RP and more giving some a telling off for not wearing a helmet whilst cycling. (Might still be a great RP situation, don't get me wrong.)

Let me put this in perspective from a police side of things:

I login, I get my uniform on, I get in a car (I've not had to work for in any way), I respond to a despatch and engage in quality RP right away.
Someone steals my patrol car.
It's gone.
It gets destroyed, a gang have taken it and blown it up.
I go back to the PD, get another car out and continue my patrol.
Once I've had enough, I logoff and when I come back the next time, the cars will all be there (if someone's been to the impound) and I've not had to spend any time grinding for the stuff I used and have had the enjoyment of RPing with random people in the city.

From a crim perspective:

I login, pull out a car (I've had to accumulate money for). I then go for a drive and look for an opportunity to engage in RP with someone.
It could take a while, but considering I'm playing as a crim, I shouldn't necessarily be a law abiding citizen... So the likelihood is I'm going to go through a few red lights, I might rob a shop, or someone... I might even kill another player!
I take someone hostage, a police officer sees and a pursuit is initiated.
After a while, I shake off the police, but they've got my plate.

Now you could say "don't use your own car", which is fair, but as a crim, when are you then expected to use your own car? Are crims not expected to buy cars? Do police want to chase everyone in a local Sultan until devs tinker with it's performance? That's what could end up happening. Try and think about the bigger picture here... Remember this is a game and meant to be fun for everyone.

Now the police have requested my vehicle be scrapped by a judge, the judge has approved and the next time I wake up, I've received a text to tell me my vehicle has been scrapped. I cry.

The consequence of this means as a crim, I'm less motivated to grind for the money again to buy the car I've just lost. Would it not make more sense (and be more balanced) for that vehicle to be impounded for a lengthy period of time as an alternative? Crim remains punished and the police have still had a victory as a result of their work identifying the car involved? Complaints about crims having to spend hours at a time grinding for cash, lose some of their validity and police are kept on their toes enjoying some better crim RP more often.

The Pros:

• Improves server balance. Police don't lose cars permanently, crims wouldn't either (they'd just be without them for a few hours/days)
  
• Others stated throughout my war and peace essay above...
  

The Cons:

• Police may feel the punishments don't go far enough, with repeat offenders taking advantage of this change. Perhaps vehicle scrap requests could still exist, but would require a court case given the impact on the person playing as the crim? This would give the opportunity for them to defend themselves and prevent their vehicle being scrapped without at least being heard first.
  

Does this suggestion change balance on the server ?

As above it is intended to help restore balance between police and crims, with neither side losing vehicles permanently. However I can see some crims taking advantage of this, if it were to be implemented. As such it would have to be monitored and reviewed periodically, in the same way speeding tickets have been recently.

 

[Siren]

I agree with this to a certain extent, as someone who also plays both crim and police I can see both sides. Removing the feature completely wouldn’t make sense because crims who are constantly using their fastest cars to engage in crim rp knowing they’ll be able to outrun any police vehicles without a problem is unbalanced and if they know that theyll have no chance of their vehicle being scrapped it will just encourage them to constantly use their cars and they won’t give a shit about it. Realistically if you’re a criminal you aren’t going to be driving around committing crimes in your Ferrari or other super cars, you’re gonna use vehicles you don’t give a shit about losing or police seizing. On the other hand the grinding for money part on the crims behalf I do agree with but I feel a lot of that can be put down to the current economy and how difficult and time consuming it is to make money, especially in an rp server where the focus is suppose to be on rp, it all comes back IMO to there possibly being more worthwhile ways for making money for crims which could include more avenues for good rp. I think overall the suggestion is definitely something that should be talked about and possibly altered, maybe making it harder for vehicles to be scrapped? Not sure how hard it is for them to be scrapped at the minute as I haven’t really been involved in that side of policing, I know there has to be a substantial amount of evidence and it has to be passed by a judge, but what about introducing a way for the person who’s vehicle is going to be scrapped to appeal it, could give the solicitors and judges more rp as well as the police and crims, just a thought  

 

[JackJohnson]

Hi, 

I am going to reply to this as one of my characters is a member of the Road Crime Team (the team that deals mostly with vehicles and scraps). Firstly, this is a very detailed suggestion & I appreciate the effort that has went into it. 
I will say, I have personally scrapped several vehicles this month alone, for various reasons, but I do think it is too easy on some cases. However with that said, I think going down the route of a staff/dev suggestion is the wrong way for it to be handled, my version of this suggestion would be as below, please let me know what you think? 
 

1. Overdue tickets - I don’t think this aspect should change. People are given plenty of time to pay these tickets, they have the option to not speed etc… if they don’t pay their tickets then it’s on them. 
 

2. Use in crime - I think this could be changed. As it stands, the LS court policy used by Judges & Police to dictate how this works states it has to be used in 2 serious offences/situations (for a land vehicle). I think something along the lines of used 3 times for serious offences/situations in the last 30 days would be much better suited for RPUK & would result in people being more careful, but also losing their cars less & would be an all-round much fairer and better system for all the players involved. 
 

However, as I said, this shouldn’t be something amended by staff/devs (in my opinion) - as it stands there is a fully functional court system & Police command, so why not use it and work on amendments to the court policy within RP. For example - why take a document that was created for RP, used in RP and controlled in RP and turn it into something that staff are forced to balance for us? I would hope that all of the people that have been appointed to these trusted whitelisted roles would be able to work out a fairer way to work this out. 
 

Now, I know I have barely touched base with the full court policy and powers (license bans, points, other vehicle types etc…) but I think I have made my point. I do absolutely agree that it’s easy in some cases to scrap cars & ultimately results in crim characters being left ‘out in the cold’ and that it should be changed/amended to suit the current state of RPUK however I 100% believe that by suggestion/asking for staff/devs to do this is simply giving up the chance for a massive RP situation that would involve a lot of people and in the end make RPUK a better place for crims. 
 

In summary though - no people should be driving around crazy in a serious RP server, but end of the day it’s a game and yes I do believe that sometimes it is too easy for Police to scrap cars which potentially can ruin another player’s experience. 
 

Let me know what you think? 

 

[Bmav]

However, as I said, this shouldn’t be something amended by staff/devs (in my opinion) - as it stands there is a fully functional court system & Police command, so why not use it and work on amendments to the court policy within RP. For example - why take a document that was created for RP, used in RP and controlled in RP and turn it into something that staff are forced to balance for us? I would hope that all of the people that have been appointed to these trusted whitelisted roles would be able to work out a fairer way to work this out. 

This might sound toxic what i am about to say but its not the intention:

I always agreed with that point if its something created in RP it should be dealt with in RP and not enforced by staff but to be honest these types of situations you mention you don't want do tend to happen in crim life where they are forced down to do stuff the way they don't want and don't have say in it i never really said anything about those things because they do make some sense (atleast to me) in the end of the day to be able to manage the economy, but it ends up breaking it anyway just to a different side.

They also do end up happening for police with the whole corrupt cop thing that happened sometime ago where people got removed without proper RP prove to do it.

I sometimes feel like the community isn't really trusted with stuff and honestly sometimes rightfully so, but I do fell like sometimes risks need to be taken in order to give the community a chance to manage itself in certain ways. I know it might be something hard to believe in considering for the amount of time i have been here i have seen some not so smart decisions by members of the community that had some responsibilities in game.

If you ask me a good step in the right direction would be appointing a community manager, i don't care if he is staff or not just someone that plays mostly CIV life and is not really affiliated with any gangs and not so focused on police (someone thats kinda of in the middle just gonna say an example but obviously not saying he should be community manager -Jeep since he mostly on civ life but isn't with any gangs or associations and just has a mechanic shop). And after appointing that community manager there should be meeting with community leads, Police Command , NHS, Groupe6 so they could all voice their opinions on what they think needs to be changed and afterwards the community manager should go around and confirm if those opinions are valid or not.

Hopefully people don't take what i said here the wrong way.

1. Overdue tickets - I don’t think this aspect should change. People are given plenty of time to pay these tickets, they have the option to not speed etc… if they don’t pay their tickets then it’s on them. 

Agree with this but i think the suggestion wasn't really targeted at this, what i see sometimes is that cops decide to scrap a car literary at the beginning of a chase its not something they really deliberate and it doesn't make sense that has soon as a chase starts thats the first thing a cop says. (I said sometimes obviously doesn't mean all cops are like this there is always good apples and bad apples in the bag)

2. Use in crime - I think this could be changed. As it stands, the LS court policy used by Judges & Police to dictate how this works states it has to be used in 2 serious offences/situations (for a land vehicle). I think something along the lines of used 3 times for serious offences/situations in the last 30 days would be much better suited for RPUK & would result in people being more careful, but also losing their cars less & would be an all-round much fairer and better system for all the players involved. 

This is also something i can get behind i really hate the fact that every crime you committed since you came to the server is always there and not expire after a certain amount of time, because at the end of the day people that do play crim life if they have been here for like 1 or 2 years they will just go prison for life inevitably or get their cars scraped because of the time they have played the server.

If you ask me some charges should be removed after a certain amount of time and it should all be taken into account if it was done recently like 1 to 3 months depends on the charges but i think you can understand what i mean.

In summary though - no people should be driving around crazy in a serious RP server, but end of the day it’s a game and yes I do believe that sometimes it is too easy for Police to scrap cars which potentially can ruin another player’s experience. 

As for this i am just gonna say i agree people shouldn't be driving like crack heads all the time but to be honest this is something that happens on both sides either you want it or not, The only difference is Police put on their lights to avoid traffic laws (without a proper reason to put their lights on) while the civs have to pay tickets which balances it out. (Disregarding the ridiculous price that the tickets got changed to ( 1000-3000 a ticket)  but thank god they got reduced but still slightly higher which i don't mind now)

 

[M]

Now you could say "don't use your own car", which is fair, but as a crim, when are you then expected to use your own car? Are crims not expected to buy cars? Do police want to chase everyone in a local Sultan until devs tinker with it's performance? That's what could end up happening. Try and think about the bigger picture here... Remember this is a game and meant to be fun for everyone.

Realistically if a person is going to commit a crime, they wouldn't do it in their own car for the aforementioned reason. They'd do it in a stolen vehicle. You aren't limited to stealing local's vehicles, I've stole many of peoples rides as they were parked and left unobserved and used them to commit crime. 

Successful criminals use their vehicles as a show piece of their pleasure in criminal lifestyle, rather than to enable them to commit crime. 

 

[Haza]

I understand why vehicles get scrapped due to unpaid tickets, used in crime however I think they get scrapped too quickly.

Police are so hungry to get certain vehicles scrapped it’s a joke. For example Vagos bought a rumpo and we used it one time against the coalition where only ONE shot was shot out of the rumpo but just had multiple shots at the rumpo and yet we had police threatening to scrap it?
 

Armoured cars are in the server for a reason, they cost a tonne of money to get in the first place which takes a lot of time and for it to be scrapped like that because it was shot at is a joke. 
 

I think scrapping vehicles should still be a thing but it’s too much of a frequent occurrence and seems to be the route a lot of cars are going down. Maybe increase the time in the impound to a much longer time (as mentioned above)

 

[Edwago - R Henderson]

Ben, great effort on this one and I totally agree, nothing more from me.

 

[Zulufighter]

Scrapping does need to continue to be a thing, prison time doesn't really seem to discourage people from committing crimes so impounding cars for longer periods of time, essentially imprisoning the cars will not have the same effect to discourage people from doing certain things in the same way that scrapping does. There are different avenues for using vehicles to commit crimes, steal a local or someone else's car you don't have to risk yours.

Despite having no knowledge of the police system for scrapping vehicles it does sound like that that it is currently to easy to do and I do agree that it should only be an option when a serious or multiple serious crimes have been committed. I also agree with @Chris McCainthat there is a really good opportunity here to argue this in court.

 

[Nikolai]

don't think this needs any dev input(or atleast, not that much)

increase time vehicles can be impounded for, unless that's already high/unlimited

get Police command/court system to put in a new system along the lines of 3 chances per vehicle

first 2-3 times, is impound which gets longer and more expensive as it "goes up"

then after the 2-3 times it's been impounded for next time it's used for something highly illegal(gang war, drive bys, whatever people do with vehicles now a days) it's a scrap.
Your chances are up for said vehicle and you've just lost it, no more, no less

doesn't need much change from devs(if any) just POLCOM and Courts to figure something out together

i will add on.
some vehicles should be a insta scrap if used in a illegal activity, just like we did on arma(not to compare the 2)

 

[Johnathon Reeds]

Armoured cars are in the server for a reason, they cost a tonne of money to get in the first place which takes a lot of time and for it to be scrapped like that because it was shot at is a joke. 

The majority of armoured cars were also made unobtainable for a reason

Don't bring your fancy cars to a gunfight without expecting to lose it. You have plenty of other options available to you

 

[Guest]

I understand why vehicles get scrapped due to unpaid tickets, used in crime however I think they get scrapped too quickly.

Police are so hungry to get certain vehicles scrapped it’s a joke. For example Vagos bought a rumpo and we used it one time against the coalition where only ONE shot was shot out of the rumpo but just had multiple shots at the rumpo and yet we had police threatening to scrap it?
 

Armoured cars are in the server for a reason, they cost a tonne of money to get in the first place which takes a lot of time and for it to be scrapped like that because it was shot at is a joke. 
 

I think scrapping vehicles should still be a thing but it’s too much of a frequent occurrence and seems to be the route a lot of cars are going down. Maybe increase the time in the impound to a much longer time (as mentioned above)

Just on this there is only 1 team that handle this(7 police officers). if loads of cops are running around saying scrap scrap scrap it's empty threats. We(Road Crime Team) get sent the intel and look at the records of the cars / people involoved. We then decide if we have enough evidence and justifcation to move forward. then warrants / scrap requests get written and approved by 3 members of police command then  sent onto the court to decide. im not going to give the exact conditions we have to meet before we can start taking action(but its more than 1 incident). otherwise people will just use it against us. just like shouting "I have a heart condtion" while running at full speed away to prevent getting tasered.

On the shooting. this a UK based city. so having a firearm in the first place is seroius. Let alone storming a ranch and shooting from it. in real life you wouldn't be able to just pick the car up from inpound. you would have to explain to the police why your car was used in a crime like that before they would even consider releasing it. And they would the straight round your house putting the door through. it has to work both ways in the city. we need to have the power there and use it to set an example to people who drive at 140 mph round the city. crash into people and just dip or do drive bys or run the from the police. We are currently having discussions about how points are handed out to people to make sure its fair and not 20 points from one offence for example.

The almost histeria that car scrapping has caused in the past 2 weeks shows how much people care about their cars and property. maybe individuals, groups and whitelisted gangs really need to think about how act in cars to avoid becoming targets of the police

Had a chat with Norman there is a copy of the policy on the courts website that is public. might be worth a read

 

[Haza]

Just on this there is only 1 team that handle this(7 police officers). if loads of cops are running around saying scrap scrap scrap it's empty threats. We(Road Crime Team) get sent the intel and look at the records of the cars / people involoved. We then decide if we have enough evidence and justifcation to move forward. then warrants / scrap requests get written and approved by 3 members of police command then  sent onto the court to decide. im not going to give the exact conditions we have to meet before we can start taking action(but its more than 1 incident). otherwise people will just use it against us. just like shouting "I have a heart condtion" while running at full speed away to prevent getting tasered.

On the shooting. this a UK based city. so having a firearm in the first place is seroius. Let alone storming a ranch and shooting from it. in real life you wouldn't be able to just pick the car up from inpound. you would have to explain to the police why your car was used in a crime like that before they would even consider releasing it. And they would the straight round your house putting the door through. it has to work both ways in the city. we need to have the power there and use it to set an example to people who drive at 140 mph round the city. crash into people and just dip or do drive bys or run the from the police. We are currently having discussions about how points are handed out to people to make sure its fair and not 20 points from one offence for example.

The almost histeria that car scrapping has caused in the past 2 weeks shows how much people care about their cars and property. maybe individuals, groups and whitelisted gangs really need to think about how act in cars to avoid becoming targets of the police

Had a chat with Norman there is a copy of the policy on the courts website that is public. might be worth a read

Valid points cheers for the essay 

 

[Terry Ball]

Thanks for the feedback so far all, very interesting and thought provoking.

It's not just RPU who can send vehicle scrap requests, just thought I should clarify this. Let's also remember, not all our judges are squeaky clean, as both crims and police officers are both aware...  

I accept that a change in policy in this instance might come better from an RP angle instead of a dev request, so thank you to those who have also highlighted this.

It's still been beneficial I think being able to have this conversation OOC nonetheless.

 

[JackJohnson]

Thanks for the feedback so far all, very interesting and thought provoking.

It's not just RPU who can send vehicle scrap requests, just thought I should clarify this. Let's also remember, not all our judges are squeaky clean, as both crims and police officers are both aware...  

I accept that a change in policy in this instance might come better from an RP angle instead of a dev request, so thank you to those who have also highlighted this.

It's still been beneficial I think being able to have this conversation OOC nonetheless.

Couldn’t agree with this more, even as someone who has a character in RPU, I definitely think there is room for improvement to better benefit players. I do really think within RP is the best way though. 
 

My suggestion would be changing it from 2 serious offences/incidents to 2 serious offences/incidents within x amount of days

 

[Joshua]

Let's also remember, not all our judges are squeaky clean,

Judges cannot be corrupt

 

[M]

Judges cannot be corrupt

neither can any ghanan be corrupt

 

[Joshua]

neither can any ghanan be corrupt

This man is a good man! @ConnorTheGreatt

#wanyamaapproved 

 

[AlfredW]

I think a lot of this sentiment comes from a perspective way too engrossed in the current gang situation - and we can't loosen rules to accommodate for criminals continually escalating their conflicts.

The thread also doesn't do justice to how rare scraps are as they only happen when police have a lot of evidence and have put a large amount of time into all the paperwork, not at all as common and easy as they are presented here. The 8 page document we have written up on all of the very specific requirements which police need to base any scrap requests on can be found here: https://sites.google.com/view/lscourts/policies/vehicle-policy (I'm sure @Normancould get us the precise stats in regards to how many have been requested, how many have been denied and how many have been approved, and you would be surprised.)

So with those strict requirements in mind, it takes very little effort for a criminal to avoid a scrap, and saying otherwise demonstrates a lack of imagination.

However, I am still all for increasing the current impound times and fees as they are currently inconsequential, but not to the detriment of the seizure system.

 

[Namron]

I've been watching from the sidelines to see where the discussion goes

this shouldn’t be something amended by staff/devs (in my opinion) - as it stands there is a fully functional court system & Police command, so why not use it and work on amendments to the court policy within RP.

That's fully how this works/was devised. The Judiciary worked with polcom / interested police officers to devise most of the current policy, and we are fortunate that it's in our gift to adjust it as and when required (such as off the back of these conversations)

Instead, could crim vehicles be impounded for a longer duration and not scrapped?

This is something that I'm personally in favour of as an additional measure. I think longer impounds could definitely be a more prominent rung of the 'vehicle' punishment ladder, but I don't think we should underestimate the impact that scrapping cars brings. (as, has been proven with the prison system, time doesn't faze a lot of crims)

I login, I get my uniform on, I get in a car (I've not had to work for in any way)

I'd argue you, and your colleagues have had to work for this? You've had to apply to, be interviewed for, trained in and tested on your ability to get to that positions. Far more work than 'buying' a car. And the faction has had to work for these cars too? The faction suffers a net loss everytime you leave your vehicle out, money that has to be replenished through evidence transports and tickets. It's definitely not an infinite pot, and releasing cars from the impound costs command time + money. 

But equally, you face so many other challenges as cop (e.g policy, procedure, writing up reports) that things such as vehicles are left up to command to manage.

Now you could say "don't use your own car", which is fair, but as a crim, when are you then expected to use your own car? Are crims not expected to buy cars? Do police want to chase everyone in a local Sultan until devs tinker with it's performance? That's what could end up happening

I fully agree with @Johnathon Reedsand @M's points earlier. Think smarter. I often wonder how repeat offenders are stupid enough to use their own, expensive, vehicles - time after time. There are a whole range of local / other players cars you can (and should IMHO) steal if you are committing these indictable offences you mention.

Civs are expected to buy cars, to show off and parade their wealth - but should be aware of the chance of loosing them. 

Emphasis on the 'could' end up - not what has. I think that's a cynical view!

The consequence of this means as a crim, I'm less motivated to grind for the money again to buy the car I've just lost. Would it not make more sense (and be more balanced) for that vehicle to be impounded for a lengthy period of time as an alternative? Crim remains punished and the police have still had a victory as a result of their work identifying the car involved? Complaints about crims having to spend hours at a time grinding for cash, lose some of their validity and police are kept on their toes enjoying some better crim RP more often.

The repeated nature of offenders has, thus far, suggested to me that motivation isn't lost. I understand the argument, but I really don't think it's an appropriate punishment when lots of these vehicles are actively used to shoot people. It's also the same people, pulling out the same vehicles, time and time again - and I don't think this would stop, they'd just wait X days, or X weeks. As they've suffered no net loss.

Perhaps vehicle scrap requests could still exist, but would require a court case given the impact on the person playing as the crim? This would give the opportunity for them to defend themselves and prevent their vehicle being scrapped without at least being heard first.

All civilians are able (and many do) submit appeal cases for all police actions (prison, licence bans, fines, warrants, scraps) and a significant percent have won. It would be too difficult to hold cases 'in advance of' an action, which is why the appeal process exists.

maybe making it harder for vehicles to be scrapped? Not sure how hard it is for them to be scrapped at the minute as I haven’t really been involved in that side of policing, I know there has to be a substantial amount of evidence and it has to be passed by a judge, but what about introducing a way for the person who’s vehicle is going to be scrapped to appeal it

I have personally scrapped several vehicles this month alone, for various reasons, but I do think it is too easy on some cases.

Currently it's quite a high threshold for cars to be scraped, and we are very transparent with what the requirements are https://sites.google.com/view/lscourts/policies/vehicle-policy - I think it may be 'easy' if people have multiple offences, in the same vehicle, to submit a request. But some stats for you. Since the introduction of our current way of processing these, we've had 27 denied requests, and 58 accepted - with most people having to alter / make amendments 2-3 times to what they have submitted before they get accepted.

As I mentioned, the appeal process is completed frequently, to varying successes - and the current policy has been made in extensive collaboration with Judges, Police and Civs to ensure balance. We believe the current process is far, and many cops complain to us about how onerous it is.

not all our judges are squeaky clean, as both crims and police officers are both aware...

Not sure how much of this is a joke / serious - but if you do have any concerns about any "corruption" amongst Judges, please speak to myself, @Archie, or Management ( @Aiden) on Teamspeak/Forum MSG as this is something that we take really seriously, due to the ability to influence server balance.