Free legal advice when arrested - Duty solicitor payment system

[M]

Brief Summary:

Implement a state-funded payment system for solicitors representing people at the police station and proceeding bench trials.

The greatest barrier to accessing legal aid within Los Santos is the cost involved. When suspects are arrested they are given the opportunity to call a solicitor, however this is redundant if the suspect doesn't have the means to pay. Los Santos citizens should have the right to free legal advice when arrested in custody, and as such the state should foot the bill. 

The Pros (Citizens): 

• Citizens wont have to pay for legal fees when arrested
  
• More encouragement for citizens to engage in high-quality roleplay if it is free
  
• More accountability of the police for citizens
  
• An improved justice system that serves the interest of the people rather than those who can pay
  
• Makes the solicitor role a more attractive, higher-skill, high quality roleplay opportunity
  

The Cons (Citizens):

• There aren't many cons for citizens that I can think of
  
  
  If a person were to be framed, having access to legal advice could ruin chance of success.
  

The Pros (Solicitors): 

• May make the solicitor role more attractive and help improve solicitor activity
  
• A guaranteed and consistent source of income for solicitors
  
• More opportunities for work for solicitors resulting from more calls
  
• Helps make the solicitor role a more primary role (a player's main character)
  

The Cons (Solicitors): 

• Reduces competition for duty solicitors in pricing - this wont affect competitive pricing for other cases such as civil cases
  

Detailed Suggestion:

The greatest barrier to accessing legal aid within Los Santos is the cost involved. When suspects are arrested they are given the opportunity to call a solicitor, however this is redundant if the suspect doesn't have the means to pay. Los Santos citizens should have the right to free legal advice when arrested in custody, and as such the state should foot the bill. 

I am proposing a system built into the game to properly reimburse solicitors for their time, making the solicitor role competitive with other jobs in Los Santos. 

The duty solicitor payment system is based off the hourly rates set by The Criminal Legal Aid (Remunerations) Regulations 2013, the legal framework for reimbursing solicitors. 

Police Station attendance hourly rates
Own or Duty Solicitor    £56.20 (London)
Duty Solicitor – serious offence rate    £65.00 (London)

The duty solicitor rates here shouldn't be used within Los Santos. A rate that will pay more than the average job should be used. I am slightly out of touch with the rates, so I wont give a suggestion.

How this can be implemented:

1. Officers who invite a duty solicitor can open the relevant PNC crime report, and select from a list of online duty solicitors, click the right one, and a 1 hour payment is provided to the solicitor. To prevent exploitation or accidental duplication, the choice should be one-time only and require a confirmation.
   

Does this suggestion change balance on the server?

I am under the personal belief that there is an un-even balance towards the police in terms of the legal system. This is because they in most cases have the control over enforcement and punishment of crimes. Having a solicitor is a first line of defence against this, solicitors can properly hold the police to account and help ensure the best outcome for their clients. This payment system is designed to further support the role of the solicitor and make it a more attractive job, therefore creating a fairer balance. 

 

[Nazgul]

I like the idea was stuck in mission row of for two hours helping four clients back to back two of which was a up hill battle but the last two where great to work with and weren’t trying to add further charges on while in custody but as it was my first day on the job told my clients there is no fee it is up to them if they wish to give some money for my time to represent them.

Fortunately both of the nice client did give a generous amount and were happy with how I fought their legal case though they did have time in jail it was reduced by a large amount 

so I would very much like to see this to be added for solicitors so they can make money from all cases that are easier to handle when client behave and are also payed when the clients are actively fighting against you helping them kind of went off on a tangent but I would like this suggestion as a sum up

 

[CodyLtd]

@Nazgul Yeah the problem Ive noticed with solicitors from a cop perspective, is that only 2 types of people ask for them, new people, or people that are malding and trying to waste the cops time. I am Kylo, who called you yesterday and luckily the guy was not the latter kind. 

I think this suggestion could be pretty good even for cops, since there are barely any solicitors ever online, people that have experience on the server never ask for them, however if this manages to get more people to take up the role, this might actually bring more fun RP, as the RP I had yesterday with Nazgul was good, and he managed to get the suspects sentence reduced by 200 months.

So yeah, I see this as a win win, cops get RP, civs get an actually effective way to defend themselves.

 

[Phoenix]

Citizens wont have to pay for legal fees when arrested

Solicitors shouldn't be charging people for legal fees in the cell anyway, those in custody have a right to free legal advice.

 

[M]

Solicitors shouldn't be charging people for legal fees in the cell anyway, those in custody have a right to free legal advice.

Ok, I just won't turn up if I don't get paid. I can do something more profitable with my time, such as truck driving. Yes. My character has a side hustle.

We'd love to give free legal advice to people, its just unfortunate that no organisation is footing the bill. So it falls on either the good will of the solicitor or the client's wallet.

The first thing usually asked when I get a call for a solicitor job at the police station is "what is your rates?"

 

[Johnathon Reeds]

Solicitors shouldn't be charging people for legal fees in the cell anyway, those in custody have a right to free legal advice.

You fail to realise that as solicitors, we are independent, we don't work for anyone, nor for the state. Why would we waste our time going to deal with people in the cells if we weren't getting paid at all for it?

 

[Nazgul]

Ok, I just won't turn up if I don't get paid. I can do something more profitable with my time, such as truck driving. Yes. My character has a side hustle.

We'd love to give free legal advice to people, its just unfortunate that no organisation is footing the bill. So it falls on either the good will of the solicitor or the client's wallet.

The first thing usually asked when I get a call for a solicitor job at the police station is "what is your rates?"

as it is a public service it should come out the council legal budget if such a thing exists? 

 

[Phoenix]

You fail to realise that as solicitors, we are independent, we don't work for anyone, nor for the state. Why would we waste our time going to deal with people in the cells if we weren't getting paid at all for it?

Acting as a duty solicitor, it is the responsibility of the state to ensure you are compensated for your time. Duty solicitors are not allowed to ask for reimbursement from the client in custody as it's predatory, hence the creation of this suggestion to allow duty solicitors to get paid for their time.

Also, I will point out that solicitors do actually already have a salary of £100. I agree that it isn't much, but it does seem to be around the same amount that is being suggested, and I'm unsure if the suggestor is aware of this.

 

[M]

Also, I will point out that solicitors do actually already have a salary of £100. I agree that it isn't much, but it does seem to be around the same amount that is being suggested, and I'm unsure if the suggestor is aware of this.

take note of

The duty solicitor rates here shouldn't be used within Los Santos. A rate that will pay more than the average job should be used. I am slightly out of touch with the rates, so I wont give a suggestion.

 

[Phoenix]

The duty solicitor rates here shouldn't be used within Los Santos. A rate that will pay more than the average job should be used. I am slightly out of touch with the rates, so I wont give a suggestion.

The average pay for an entry-job in the city is £30, so £100 is already far more than the average

 

[TheCap]

The average pay for an entry-job in the city is £30, so £100 is already far more than the average

Yes however, the server is different, I remember police wanting a raise because 160 pounds wasnt enough due to prices on everything having a rise and people want a better salary. As a officer, you get Vehicle, equipment for free as Im a cop myself. I have more trouble as a solicitor than as a cop regarding money, TRUE my cop character was NCA and part of a gang where I made more money than usual, but as a solicitor I struggle making money because 80% of the time, I get a call to the cells. 100 pounds no where close enough to what I require for a daily basis of food, fuel etc.. Solicitors should be paid WAY more. 

 

[Phoenix]

Yes however, the server is different, I remember police wanting a raise because 160 pounds wasnt enough due to prices on everything having a rise and people want a better salary. As a officer, you get Vehicle, equipment for free as Im a cop myself. I have more trouble as a solicitor than as a cop regarding money, TRUE my cop character was NCA and part of a gang where I made more money than usual, but as a solicitor I struggle making money because 80% of the time, I get a call to the cells. 100 pounds no where close enough to what I require for a daily basis of food, fuel etc.. Solicitors should be paid WAY more. 

I'm not disagreeing with the suggestion, I do believe Solicitors should be reciving reimbursement considering what legal professions get paid. What I'm trying to do is determine in this thread what that reimbursement should be and to point out the fact that solicitors legally shouldn't asking for payment from those in cells, hence necessitating a system like this to be put in place.

Having something like this would be really good and would somewhat revitalise the role of the solicitor in the server, however I still feel even with this in place there'd be a ways to go to make solicitor something that's actually used and that people want to play as.

 

[M]

The average pay for an entry-job in the city is £30, so £100 is already far more than the average

Yes however, the server is different, I remember police wanting a raise because 160 pounds wasnt enough due to prices on everything having a rise and people want a better salary. As a officer, you get Vehicle, equipment for free as Im a cop myself. I have more trouble as a solicitor than as a cop regarding money, TRUE my cop character was NCA and part of a gang where I made more money than usual, but as a solicitor I struggle making money because 80% of the time, I get a call to the cells. 100 pounds no where close enough to what I require for a daily basis of food, fuel etc.. Solicitors should be paid WAY more. 

You might be a little confused with what I am suggesting. We're not intending to change the automatic salary.

We are seeking payments for cases that we take on in the police station. Like when a truck driver completes a delivery. 

the fact that solicitors legally shouldn't asking for payment from those in cells, hence necessitating a system like this to be put in place.

What law stops me? Because I can point to all the other laws that show that the state should be paying me.

 

[TheCap]

You might be a little confused with what I am suggesting. We're not intending to change the automatic salary.

We are seeking payments for cases that we take on in the police station. Like when a truck driver completes a delivery. 

oh yea I get that, I was just replying to someone else. I was also referring to the solicitors pay being way too low, sad to say, but the most money I made is from people in the cells 

 

[Phoenix]

What law stops me? Because I can point to all the other laws that show that the state should be paying me.

The state should be paying you, and is currently paying you (but yes, it should be more), hence the salary. The fact of if you should/shouldn't be asking the client for payment isn't up for debate. In real life, duty solicitors do not ask for renumeration from the client in custody because they get statutory pay as outlined in The Criminal Legal Aid (Remuneration) (Amendment) Regulations 2016. If you were caught asking clients for payment, you would be expelled from being able to work as a Duty Solicitor as all Duty Solicitors are part of the DSCC, which is in itself part of the Legal Aid Agency.

Your client in custody has a right to free legal advice, hence the fact the payment comes from the state. Your suggestion is that the police should be able to say that you have attended and have you paid for the time you have spent, and I agree with that. What I do not agree with is you performing an act that could get you disbarred.

 

[Nazgul]

The state should be paying you, and is currently paying you (but yes, it should be more), hence the salary. The fact of if you should/shouldn't be asking the client for payment isn't up for debate. In real life, duty solicitors do not ask for renumeration from the client in custody because they get statutory pay as outlined in The Criminal Legal Aid (Remuneration) (Amendment) Regulations 2016. If you were caught asking clients for payment, you would be expelled from being able to work as a Duty Solicitor as all Duty Solicitors are part of the DSCC, which is in itself part of the Legal Aid Agency.

Your client in custody has a right to free legal advice, hence the fact the payment comes from the state. Your suggestion is that the police should be able to say that you have attended and have you paid for the time you have spent, and I agree with that. What I do not agree with is you performing an act that could get you disbarred.

I don't think anyone has mentioned to get payment when as a duty solicitor I offer free legal advice and say that if they want to they can offer a donation for my time and services its up to them i never put a charge on a FREE service its their choice if the give money to show there appreciation. I think your focusing on the wrong part of the argument and missing the point of the suggestion its for Solicitors to get more money from the government as we aren't paid enough to pay for bread and other essential items for a good living standard. 

we would just like to be paid in a way similar to a taxi and truck driver are paid for their work.

 

[Ryker]

I personally always provide my services for free when it comes to representing people at Mission Row and I don't plan to change how I operate. I consider it "pro-bono" work as I do get more than fairly compensated for my time when it comes to the court cases I take on.

Also, I will point out that solicitors do actually already have a salary of £100. I agree that it isn't much, but it does seem to be around the same amount that is being suggested, and I'm unsure if the suggestor is aware of this.

That said, what I will say to the comment above is that while in London duty solicitor rates range from £56.20 to £65.00 and we are indeed compensated with £100 pounds an hour, your logic fails to account for Los Santos inflation.

For a recent case I worked on, I had to adjust a standard remediation, which was often given in that kind of case based on a UK Common Law precedent, to LS Inflation:

The average cost of bottled water per litre in the UK: £0.65
The average cost of bottled water per litre in the Los Santos: £100 (Actually it is more around £150 but this is just an example)

Inflation Rate: 15384.61% (153.85 multiplier)

This means that the lower end of that range (£56.20) is actually £8,646.37 in Los Santos. 

----

On another note, I have seen in the past inexperienced or underperforming solicitors charging upwards of £100,000 as a base rate for court cases they take on which I think is ridiculous. One of them even got fired by their client in the middle of the court hearing. I strongly advise people seeking legal representation to research their solicitors before agreeing to anything. 

When I think of experienced solicitors 4 to 5 names come to mind. These solicitors have excellent track-records and experience in the industry and they usually charge around £100,000 to £150,000 as a base rate when it comes to regular cases as well as a reasonable percentage of any damages they win for their clients.

Then when it comes to very big cases which require a lot of background work such as legislation, case study and precedent research, as well as sometimes including detective work, intelligence gathering and some "alternative" forms of adding substance to a case they charge £200,000 all the way to millions depending on the complexity of the case. 

Duty work as a solicitor is an excellent way of gaining experience and learning how the UK Common Law system works. When I started out, I saw that as an investment in my solicitor career which led to me meeting important people, forming positive business relationships with both high-ranking police officers and clients I have represented during my duty shifts. Thanks to this and my general interest in the law, I have built a positive track-record and because of that I am able to charge the kind of prices I just talked about. Like any job in life, but more specifically GTA RP, the more you do it, the more you get better at it, the more you get paid. 

The point of all of this is that while I can see the benefits of adding some form of duty work payment system, I also see the fact that if you are not willing to put in the work to gain experience to progress your career and you don't have an interest in law then you aren't cut out for this career path in GTA RP. 

This is just an opinion of mine and I am not against but rather neutral in regards to this suggestion.

All the best,

Ryker

 

[George Harris]

Solicitors now have the ability to be paid as agreed with the Judges.​