Report a Player - Ins Hoggie - Other

Your In-game name

Vladic Ka

Name of the player(s) you are reporting

Ins Hoggie

Date of the incident

12/10/2016

Time of the incident (GMT)

100

What best describes this incident ?

Other

Which server did the incident take place on

Server 1

Please (in detail) describe the incident

I was roleplaying with a guy outside the HMP and I got shot down with little to no RP. This is typical of the people involved and I feel a ban is justified as they did not take all opportunities to RP the situation before officers were killed. This is especially damning of the offenders as I was in the middle of what I thought was a consensual RP when I was killed out of nowhere. Either libby did not convey the intent to myself of any danger or Hoggie acted with malicious intent before RP options were looked at. Unfortunately I did not get the opportunity to discuss the situation with any parties as the players involved are known for this type of poor RP and a discussion would have been fruitless. If they have any counter evidence I will obviously accept it especially from Hoggies POV as I was the first person killed in this situation. As a management member of RPUK I felt that this should be dealt with on the evidence provided and any outcome can be used for future roleplay guidance.

Link to any evidence (Youtube/Screenshot)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzKiSSqbb9s
This report is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth!

Yes

You tried to resolve the situation with the player(s) before reporting

No

This is not a revenge report (Abuse will lead to forum/community bans)

Yes

Edit: even if the gang involved told people to be unrestrained or people would die the player concerned was unrestrained when I was killed.

Hi Vlad , i have work until 5pm today , so i will not be on my pc till 6 ish. So there may be some time between responses on this appeal. Once i get back , i will be able too reply as much as i like.

For the reviewing staff member , this is my POV. I would also like to say fair play to you Vlad for not instant banning me on the spot and giving me fair chance at explaining my actions.

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Okay now i have time to explain myself. At the begining of my POV you can clearly hear that libby had issued a verbal threat stating if he was no unrestrained , officers will be shot.

Once the threat was issued , a warning shot was fired right next to him , showing that we had multiple people in the area. Libby was still not unrestrained and was his threat was ignored , so i shot you.

Now time to explain why this is not RDM. The reason this is not RDM , is because the police were issued a threat with proof that we were set up and they chose to ignore it. The initiation was very clear of what was going to occur. The gun fight could have very well be avoided if he was unrestrained , which would have gave us no reason to shoot the police.

Now if some how this report comes down with me being trigger happy. Once i was told i could kill police , i chose to wait to see if he was unrestrained. He was not an confirmed that he was not so i shot you.

I can understand why you felt this was RDM , but in my opinion the inishition was very clear and is not my fault if the police decide to ignore a threat / warning shots.

Before i finish up i would add that i am more than happy to try and resolve this in TS when i am back from work. But i understand that is not going to happen , as you really don't like me.

- Hoggie

Edit - i have been made aware that DSGT spooner was the person that was initiated on. I have been unable to find his forum profile , so if the reviewing admin could tag him in this , that would be great. If not i shall wait until i catch him on TS tonight.

Edit 2 - "Unfortunately I did not get the opportunity to discuss the situation with any parties as the players involved are known for thos type of poor RP and a discussion would of been fruitless" - copied this from whats app , as on my phone , so yes there are spelling errors

Not wanting to cause an argument or anything , but surely the try to resolve rule should apply to everyone , no matter what rank in the community. I would also like to add all this hassle could have not happened if we sat in the rebel / police liasion room for 2 minutes. I feel a TS chat would have saved myself snd yourself a shit tone of time. surely as we have had problems before does not mean your not mature enough to sit in a TS channel with me, cause i hope that is not the reason you decided to not try and resolve and report me first. 

The reason I did not decide to resolve things with you is because it would not have been a 2 minute conversation. It never is with you from experience. It's always just you telling everyone why you are right and everyone else is wrong.

As you can see from my vid the player in question was unrestrained when I was shot. I was In no way a threat to him yet I was shot first with no warning. I have nothing more to add except I am sick of people who do not try to roleplay out of situations and go straight to the gun fight. 

The outcome of this report will set a precident for future situations of its type. 

Edit: you can clearly see the person I was role playing with unrestrained in both vids and the person "negotiating" only said unrestrain me and others. There were multiple people at that location. Really poor. 

Hi i was Libby at the situation and I had no idea what was going on at the time because my communications were muted and was just trying to roleplay with you at the time, so I was not involved in the initiation or whoever was shooting first, just wanted to clear this up

Hoggie said:

At the begining of my POV you can clearly hear that libby had issued a verbal threat stating if he was no unrestrained , officers will be shot.

Click to expand...

that is also not me who said this.

Silker said:

Hi i was Libby at the situation and I had no idea what was going on at the time because my communications were muted and was just trying to roleplay with you at the time, so I was not involved in the initiation or whoever was shooting first, just wanted to clear this up

Click to expand...

That's what I thought. I'm glad you cleared that up because you did seam eager for RP and not a gunfight. I will remove your name from the report. 

*removed* - Going to be adding a longer more in depth response to this report when i am back from work. And after i have spoken to everyone involved. As well as review all evidence and possible upload more from my side as well. No point me rushing a response when i can put a lot more detail in when i get off the bus.

-Hoggie

ba

We will await your response hoggie, however I do have a question. As far as you are aware the person making the threat is libby, he gets unrestrained and you yourself make a point of noting this. So other than the fact that someone said to shoot. Why did you?

Okay , time for the long response im going to make , just got back from work so i was unable to respond to the appeal.

To start of im going to respond to @ArrogantBreadquestion. So i was on the radio and i was being told too shoot the cops, i ask Humzah ''Have you been unrestrained'' and he responded with ''No''. The initiation was that everyone must be unrestrained or the cops would be shot. I thought i saw Silker was unrestrained but i shot because i was told to because cops did not listen to the initiation. I saw the Silker trying to drop his gun as well as police not complying so i took the first shot. I also did not know if Silker was bugged in his restraints so it . 

Now time too point out some things.

1. Vladic having in radio muted

This was pointed out by quite a few of my friends and its true. Vladic had his radio muted. This would mean that he in no way would be able to know if the cops were initiated on because he would be unable to hear. You can even hear in his video the warning shot that went off , so surly you would ask what the shot was all about. I understand why vlads radio was off , as he wanted to hear the RP better , but surely its not my fault if he couldn't hear other officers saying we have been threatened and going to die.

2. The initiation 

The initiation is '' Unrestrained me now , i have snipers in the area , lethal force will be used if i am not un restrained. There was then a warning shot issued to the police at the prison to make it full on clear we are set up , so unrestrained my guys. The police were then asked '' Are you going to unrestrained me and others?'' and the police responded with ''No''. 

In my opinion the police had a lot of time to unrestrain everyone. It would have been as simple as that and no one would have been killed.

Time frames for both videos - Vladic's

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At 0 - 10 seconds - the initiation was made

At 27 seconds - Warning shots issued.

At 37 seconds - Cops still refuse to unrestrained even thought they have been threatened and had warning shots.

At 45 seconds - Im told to kill the cops

At 55 seconds - I ask again to double check if they have not complied and i can kill them without making it RDM. 

1 minute - Vlad dies.

My opinion on the situation 

In my opinion i felt the police had more than enough time too unrestrained all of the rebels. I feel all of this report could have been avoided if Vlad either spoke to me on TS or if he had his TS not muted. If the TS was not muted he would have easily been able to hear the police were initiated on and he would have been aware of the situation. I fully understand why Vlad feels he was RDMed , but in the end the initiation was there. I would also like to add there is no rule regarding not being able to initiate via the radio as well as using warning shots.

TS chat logs - Humzah

So i asked Humzah to explain to me what happened so he can share his POV. I was Nathan if he could post here , but i was told no , so i am able to put it in the report this way.

*** End of chat history
<18:42:30> "Hoggie": jump up
<18:42:48> "Hoggie": need your help
<19:16:54> "Humzah": I was the one who was talking to DSGT Spooner and i gave him a lot of time, he took me inside the little prison area where I kept trying to tell him that we can avoid this gun fight after the warning shots but he said that his higher ups told him not to let me go which was when the active gun fight began due to the fact that the officers did not release me
<19:17:02> "Humzah": should i just write that?
<19:17:26> "Hoggie": Your not allowed to respond according to Nathan , but i shall post that in now
<19:17:39> "Humzah": ah ok

TS chat logs - DSGT Spooner

After having a TS discussion witb Spooner. He informed me that all officers were notified many times that they had been initiated on.  

Muting my TS is standard for me, and by the sounds of it the person I was roleplaying with, when I feel I want to give my fullest attention to the roleplay. Always has been, always will be. It was a real shame because I thought that this RP was going to end without bloodshed as I heard that most of these situations do. Guess I was wrong.

Shots had been going off around the area pretty much since we arrived and do in most busy areas of Altis. Unless I am directly threatened within roleplay I ignore them. 

At the end of the day this was two different RPs in my eyes and even if it was the same one you still decided to take the shot on someone who clearly unrestrained and unwittingly complied with the demands of your gang. I was actually enjoying the roleplay with the fella. You did it off your own back. No one forced you too and that indicates to me that this is a common occurrence with you and whatever iteration of the gang you are currently in.

Anyone that pays attention to my ramblings in this community knows this culture of #gunfighteverything instead of #rpeverything is something that I pationately fight. If the reviewing staff member decides that this was RDM or poor RP at most then I will be one step closer to my goal of changing the current mindset of some of the players in this community that I am so pationate about. 

@Vladic Ka- I fully understand why you mute your ts sound , its makes you be able to hear the in game RP better , but in the end you having your sound muted was a major reason why you were unaware of what was going on in the area. You were litterally not even 100 meters from where the cops got initiated on , as well as you were taking Humzas gun off him , with that alone was not going along with the initiation given.

In the end it was the same area with the same initiation. You would have been fully aware of whats occuring if you had your TS unmuted. I spoke to people in the police channel and they said it was said many times that they are initiated and they run for cover.  

I understand that you are trying to use me as some example towards the community , but surely you could do it a different way. Maybe add some extra rules in or somethimg , one report that gets one long term member of the community around will sadly not affect anything. I know most gangs wont change how they play if this report decides to be approved or not.

In the end i bave been in many RP situations where i have always been told by staff and everyone its fine. I have had many i initiations against me when i was a police for a year. I feel if you don't like what happened , make it a rule. In my eyes i have broke no rule.

In the end Vlad , me and you can sit here all day about why im right and why your right. But thats just a waste of time. Unless you or me can bring some evidence to tbe table i would rather this just get approved or denied. Helps me out alot as i know if i need to join another community or not. I mean hopefully it wont have to be like this as i have been for over 19 months.

I would also like to add i am more than happy to have a mature discussion on TS to try and resolve this.

While I understand that hiding behind “I was told to shoot” is very common in our community, you need to understand that if a person has no reasonable evidence to why they died, they immediately perceive it as RDM. (see: confused vladic)

It is up to you to evaluate the situation at hand and use common sense to identify if someone is aware of the ongoing situation before you take the shot. As the video evidence shows, Vladic was stood talking with Libby with his weapon holstered on his back.

This is how I personally would have handled this situation: After using due diligence and ensuring the individual I am killing understands why they are dying and that they are clearly involved in the active gunfight and posing a threat, I would take a shot. In this circumstance, none of these things were applicable. I would then have to approach Vladic and initiate upon him, making him understand that there is an active threat in the area and he is to surrender and unrestrain my gangmate.

I get it - from your POV, you were unsure if Vladic understood what was going on .If he had had his radio on, he likely would’ve known. At the same time, you do not have a grasp on the situation either as Libby is restrained.

While open initiation upon police officers and active gunfights with them usually mean that every cop in the area is automatically included, shooting a completely static target who has his weapon away and is clearly unaware of what’s going down behind him as he’s just continuing on with RP with your gang mate is completely unacceptable - you interrupted perfectly good roleplay and did not make any serious attempt to interrupt and RP with Vladic to let him know his life was being threatened.

You pointing out that “he had his radio muted” only serves to prove that Vladic was justified in skipping the resolution stage. He knew that attempting to “resolve” it with you would just end up agitating him due to the apparent “I’m always right, everyone else is wrong.” attitude.

You made reference to how officer “Spooner” was explaining the situation over police radio and making it clear there was an obvious threat to his life, but just because he is saying it doesn’t mean it is reaching everyone’s ears. It is known that communications are sometimes hectic, and police are a shining example of chaotic. Doubling back on that good old “common sense” you should have been able to tell that Vladic wasn’t receiving the message based on him not responding at all. Would you stand there like a door nail if your colleague was being threatened?

While we won’t dabble in what if’s and theoretical circumstances long, I truly believe that if this situation were reversed, and libby was the one who was shot, you would be up in arms on the forums demanding answers as he would have been as shocked as Vladic was. (see: confused vladic)

Ultimately, I do not perceive this situation as being Vladic’s fault for not listening in to his radio mid-RP, but instead see it as a police officer dying mid-RP with no knowledge or understanding of why it happened. You need to remember not all officers’ are involved 100%, they usually are minding their own business and caught up in their own RP. You should be more careful

As a final note, the person who was “restrained” and demanding to be let go was not Libby and even if it was, libby was in fact unrestrained. As you can see in your video, he was in his inventory when you shot Vladic. So even in the case of it being Libby who was hotmicing, which it was not, it would still be RDM because you shot Vladic even after he would have “complied” with the demands to unrestrain.

FOR REASONS STATED ABOVE,

Action taken

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