XP penalties - the cold light of day?

[TinyBigJacko]

Another criticism that has been heard recently is the one about "Why are there XP penalties for doing drugs, etc? What's the point of doing them?"

On the face of it, to the person used to getting away with murder on Altis and thinking nothing of the value of polite society, I can see their angst, and even their point of view - although of course, I do not agree with it. To my mind, and those of the designers who thought long and hard about the way XP ought to work, the idea that 'doing bad things' had to be offset to some degree against 'doing good things to cover your tracks' seemed like a very sensible one, and quite challenging, but eminently feasible for anyone seriously thinking of being a 'proper' drug baron. And by 'proper' I mean the kind of drug baron that isn't a total fucktard who gets caught on day one because he shows out wildly and waves his huge wad around like a well-hung naturist turning up at a Women's Institute tea party in the buff and asking where the biscuits are.

Real drug barons are very hard to detect. 

Real drug barons hide in plain sight.

Some of them even give generously to Women's Institute tea-parties, and other civic events and campaigns, and rarely, if ever, turn up naked asking for biscuits.

But still... it begs the question... have we made things too hard for the simple folk to understand? Should we maybe just throw it all away and replace it with a button that displays a big screen that says 'You Win. Please Press Win Button Again To Win Again!"

I think not. 

Instead, how about this. We tweak it a bit. We mix it up some.

We make XP deductions only happen with drug deals and illegal activities that people are dumb enough to do IN BROAD DAYLIGHT. You go resin-making in the sunshine,and granny will smell it and your reputation (your XP) will suffer accordingly. She's seen you. You're a scummy git, lowering the tone of her neighbourhood, after all. You cook up LSD or refine coke during the day, and you're gonna attract attention.

But if you do it at dead of night, secretly, in the dark, then little old granny is fast asleep. She sees nothing. If she hears anything, she'll just think it is badgers fucking in the woods, and roll right over and go back to sleep. More importantly, your reputation (XP) doesn't suffer... and you can spend the whole night conducting your evil, foul, errant business without the upstanding citizens of Tanoa having the slightest clue what a scumbag you really are.

Except maybe the cops, of course. The cops will KNOW that only the truly foolhardy and doltish will try illegal runs by day - and doubtless they'll catch a few... but they'll also know that the real hardcore bastards only come out at night, in their true colours. They will be hunting...

And by day? Well, the clever drug-barons will be gathering what they can for their night's work ahead, and storing it, harbouring it, laying it off onto pals and into cars and trucks, ready to hit the road when the sun goes down - but with an eye out for the boys in blue, of course. Or they might be simply playing 'Mister Nice', and visiting a few old ladies for a tea-party, contributing to public community events and being a fine upstanding member of the daytime citizenry... and rarely, if ever, getting their nob out and asking for biscuits.

What do we think? Any mileage in this, or am I just fucking losing it?

(and if it's still not clear - for the dullards and hard-of-understanding - the proposal is: DAYTIME: drugs = XP-loss, NIGHTIME; drugs = No XP-loss. Nothing more, nothing less.)

 

 

[Lemmen]

Sounds like a really good idea ED! but would it be possible for the Day / Night time to get some tweaking then? Like 2½ hour day and 1½ hour night, I know this might be inconvinient a little bit for some, but then it will feel properly like a restart is a full morning to morning instead of: afternoon till.. something 1½ day later

 

[TinyBigJacko]

Timing is currently set to (I believe) a 7am or 8am start at the beginning of a 4 hour session, with a 8x speed during daytime, and a 12x speed during nighttime.

That means (I think) 7am-to-7pm passes in 1.5 hours, then the 7pm-to-7pm night passes in 1 hour, then we get another 7am-to-7pm for another 1.5 hours, followed by a server-restart. Total, four hours playtime.

We can tweak this, obviously, and if we are going to make 'nighttime' a thing, maybe it will need tweaking to give the druggies longer to operate... or maybe not? I'm open to opinions really. I have to be honest... at this stage, it's just a shell of an idea that came to me this afternoon while discussing Tanoa with my wife over lunch.

If we wanted to go hardcore, we could rack the clock up to 12x across the board - that would mean two day/night cycles per restart, with equal night and day periods, all lasting one hour each. Bit of a radical change, and maybe the days would seem to whizz by a bit fast, but hey... who knows? Maybe it'd work. Alternatively, we could slow the clock down to 6x and have a four-hour play-session be JUST one day-and-night, each of 2 hours a piece. It makes little difference to me from a coding perspective (it's like, two numbers in a file now, the way I've rebuilt things)... but it might be all sorts of things to you, the players. 

So let me know your thoughts...

 

[Lemmen]

Timing is currently set to (I believe) a 7am or 8am start at the beginning of a 4 hour session, with a 8x speed during daytime, and a 12x speed during nighttime.

That means (I think) 7am-to-7pm passes in 1.5 hours, then the 7pm-to-7pm night passes in 1 hour, then we get another 7am-to-7pm for another 1.5 hours, followed by a server-restart. Total, four hours playtime.

We can tweak this, obviously, and if we are going to make 'nighttime' a thing, maybe it will need tweaking to give the druggies longer to operate... or maybe not? I'm open to opinions really. I have to be honest... at this stage, it's just a shell of an idea that came to me this afternoon while discussing Tanoa with my wife over lunch.

If we wanted to go hardcore, we could rack the clock up to 12x across the board - that would mean two day/night cycles per restart, with equal night and day periods, all lasting one hour each. Bit of a radical change, and maybe the days would seem to whizz by a bit fast, but hey... who knows? Maybe it'd work. Alternatively, we could slow the clock down to 6x and have a four-hour play-session be JUST one day-and-night, each of 2 hours a piece. It makes little difference to me from a coding perspective (it's like, two numbers in a file now, the way I've rebuilt things)... but it might be all sorts of things to you, the players. 

So let me know your thoughts...

Tbh, if day was possible for 5x day and night 7x (or something very similar) that'd be perfect imo

 

[TinyBigJacko]

Tbh, if day was possible for 5x day and night 7x (or something very similar) that'd be perfect imo

4.5x day (2.6667 hours) and 9x (1.3333 hour) night would more exactly add up to 4 hours total - yours would clip a bit (in practice, yours would give us 2.4 hrs day and 1.6 hrs night, because we'd lose about 0.11 hrs darkness due to the restart cutting in). It's all much of a muchness though, and the sort of thing we can tinker to tune...

The main thing is, I need OTHER PEOPLE to let me know whether this general idea of ONLY having XP loss happen in DAYLIGHT might sink or fly, in their opinion. So... get thinking, peeps, and let me know please.

 

[adster mc]

I think it's a brilliant idea, obviously I have no idea what a real drug baron would do , but  for arma it sounds perfect

 

[Kaostic]

I like the Idea, but feel that it still makes it quite beneficial to do drugs.  I made a suggestion that went relatively unnoticed and would like to bring it to light again here. 

 

[TinyBigJacko]

I like the Idea, but feel that it still makes it quite beneficial to do drugs.  I made a suggestion that went relatively unnoticed and would like to bring it to light again here. 



Have responded to your idea in its own thread.

As regards making it beneficial to do drugs, well, yes, that's true. But unfortunately, it appears that that is what Joe Altis Public wants - and as I mentioned in the first post, it's a criticism that has been levelled at Tanoa, which is difficult to unhear or ignore.

We *do* need to get the player numbers up on Tanoa within the next week or two, or there will be no Tanoa server to play on, and I will be gone.

To that end, if giving a small fillip like the opportunity to do drugs in a specific way without fear of XP loss (whilst at the same time, funnelling the druggies into a corral that actually makes them slightly easier for the cops to detect, at the same time as forcing the druggies to work that bit harder and faster), then so be it. It's not quite so galling to me as simply having to remove the XP-negative completely, which imho, would be a sad and sickening loss.

I am not here to put pearls before swine, but if people don't 'get it', then either I am aiming too high, or the gameplay simply isn't comfortable enough, so something needs to change. The more negative criticism that we're able to set aside with the response of "irrelevant, no longer an issue, not a reason not to be playing", the better - and then we are at a stage where, if people still don't come to Tanoa, we know it's simply because they are hard set on their Altisian lives, and simply don't want to do anything that involves actually building a life somewhere new, starting a new character, doing any reasonable grind whatsoever, etc. All of which is quite forgiveable - but at least it means it isn't something fundamentally flawed with Tanoa itself, or my interpretation of what makes a good game.

So - for the time being, my halfway house - no XP loss doing illegal stuff at night - is still on the table, even though yes, it will make people do more drugs. But, if that's what they want... maybe it'll give the cops more reason to try and stop them, too?

 

[TinyBigJacko]

OK- as of 8pm tonight... illegal activities only get you a negative XP bash during the daytime... We'll see how this one runs, and decide whether to keep it later on. 7am to 7pm, you do naughties, you lose pointies...

 

[Maskedrussian]

This would also encourage rebels to kidnap and rob at night because they know the cops will be looking for druggies. At night time the criminal underground will come alive! +1 from me 

 

[Sikee Atric]

As a Tanoan resident, I can confirm you need to be on your toes at night.  The police have their hands full after dark, that's for sure.

The night XP system works really well and does make you think and plan your actions.  Long may this system continue. 

 

[Mr Gibbins]

XP and level progression are why I am not, and will not play Tanoa in all honesty.

It would be far better to have a reputation system where criminal activity excludes you from using the facilities of polite society but opens up connections in the criminal underworld. 

So for example, you run drugs day after day and eventually Georgetown is closed to you.  The vendors don't want to know you, the banks won't let you in, the police will arrest you on sight.  Conversely the various underworld vendors scattered around the island will progressively open up to you and sell you better guns, equipment to farm drugs etc.

Also, night on Tanoa is pretty long so what do we do as a criminal gang in the daylight?

 

[Sikee Atric]

There is still plenty to do as a Daylight Crim, you just need to be creative.

And how do Georgetown civvies know if you are a crim or not?  They're only offering shopping and vendor services.

 

[TinyBigJacko]

XP and level progression are why I am not, and will not play Tanoa in all honesty.

OK. Your choice. You're missing out, but hey. Your call. I can't beat a closed mind...

It would be far better to have a reputation system where criminal activity excludes you from using the facilities of polite society but opens up connections in the criminal underworld. 

So for example, you run drugs day after day and eventually Georgetown is closed to you.  The vendors don't want to know you, the banks won't let you in, the police will arrest you on sight.  Conversely the various underworld vendors scattered around the island will progressively open up to you and sell you better guns, equipment to farm drugs etc.

Um. You have basically just described an XP and level progression system - albeit one which is far more restrictive (in one direction) and far more involved and embedded (in the other) than the one we've built already. Are you sure you're not just trolling?

We did originally consider something like you suggested, but it was decided (by those of us tasked with building the first Tanoa cut) that it was likely to be TOO far, too fast. Most importantly, your type of system limits the player's ability to hop easily between camps depending on his mood. You can't be a raging terrorist one day, and a goody-toe-shoes the next, if you have lost all access to the rebel and druggies, and/or only have access to the civil niceties. And being a 'halfway houser' will get you no access to either.

At least with our system, you have the option to be naughty and nice at the same time, balancing each as you go, hiding in plain sight like the criminal mastermind you are, able to lay hands on hardcore weapons and wage mass war when it suits you, whilst still able to have the vicar around for tea and convincingly talk about wimples and cassocks, when the need arises. 

Life isn't always about extremes... it's about balance. Or at least, balancing your extremes.

Also, night on Tanoa is pretty long so what do we do as a criminal gang in the daylight?

Hang on. You appear to have tripped over your inability to form a coherent sentence a bit there...

The nights are 'pretty long'... yup. So what do you do in the daylight? Erm... Wut? Nope. I'm not getting it. Sorry.

For ref... the nights are 1hr of RL playtime, and the days are 1.5hrs of RL playtime.

As mentioned earlier, my suggestions for what a cool, calm and collected uber-drug-baron would do, were:

And by day? Well, the clever drug-barons will be gathering what they can for their night's work ahead, and storing it, harbouring it, laying it off onto pals and into cars and trucks, ready to hit the road when the sun goes down - but with an eye out for the boys in blue, of course. Or they might be simply playing 'Mister Nice', and visiting a few old ladies for a tea-party, contributing to public community events and being a fine upstanding member of the daytime citizenry... and rarely, if ever, getting their nob out and asking for biscuits.

But of course, you could, realistically, do whatever you liked. You could drive about looking at the scenery, hunt for rainbows, gather sugarcane or cocoa, bend bananas, go fishing, rob some civilians for their hard-earned dosh, fly about in a helicopter, drive a bus, or ferry people around in boats for cash...or just play in traffic? Heck, if you really wanted to, I guess you could stand there with your nob out, asking for biscuits, even... but hey - you'd have to play Tanoa first, to find out which you'd be best at. That might require some degree of exploratory dynamism, courage, and (god forbid) even a modicum of commitment... but I'll understand if you don't feel these are things you can supply. None of us are perfect, are we?

 

[Mr Gibbins]

Thanks for the extensive reply @TinyBigJacko, I tagged rather than quoted so as not to fill up the thread, hope that is ok.

As regards being a closed mind, that is not correct, I have given a lot of thought to how a leveling system impacts a life server and I do read the development threads and suggestions to keep an eye on how things are progressing, I also pop in some ideas.  I did make an offer to Neo to spend time writing up a whole load of ideas in detail but asked that I get a chance to have a TS chat first to make sure I wasn't wasting my time in terms of stuff that isn't technically possible.  That was turned down, but the offer stands, and I think all that shows my mind is not closed, just highly averse to a level grind.

Why, well for me there are some fundamental issues with it.

1.  It gates my ability to take part in different activities, forcing me into a progression system that rewards time played rather than imagination.

2.  It breaks RP, why would it take me longer to learn to drive just because I sold some weed, granted losing my license would make sense if caught speeding but not being able to book my lessons and pass my test seems wrong for an unrelated crime.

3.  Once the server is full of people at level cap it will lock out new players from jumping in and playing with friends or joining gangs in much the same way as "end game" raiding guilds only recruit level capped players in WoW etc.  What use are new people to a gang when they can't even drive a car for example.

--------------------------

As regards a reputation rather than level system it need not be more restrictive in a punishing way, just sufficient to make choice meaningful.  Yes of course it needs to be balanced and allow for people to work across the blurred lines, yes it does need to leave routes open to return to a normal life and reintegrate back into society after living a life of crime.  However it could also open up some really interesting RP opportunities for those that want to play in the grey area and have criminal connections without robbing everyone they meet.  For example, if a manufacturing system was added then a dynamic arises where perhaps the criminals need to buy guns from players who don't like robbing people but are happy to make some money making guns for them.  Similarly criminals may not just rob every iron truck on sight and sell everything because they can't, they would need a contact with someone that is able to use the vendor and organise a cargo transfer, or they might need to supply the metal to a player gunsmith to make them a new truck or some guns.

Making choice meaningful would make game play more complex than being everything you want to be all at the same time and through that open some fantastic RP roles.

---------------------------

I mean't day night cycle, and my response was based on your statement that " illegal activities only get you a negative XP bash during the daytime", so I assumed gathering and processing would also be punished, along with robbing etc.  If it is just the selling then that is different.... could you clarify?

Lastly, although I appreciate the reply, it is riddled with personal attacks, especially the last paragraph.  This was unfair and unwarranted.  I have never made a personal attack on the developers in regards to the work you do and only offered feedback.  You may not like the feedback, however that does not excuse you for being rude, especially given that I have made genuine offers to help in PM to Neo which would give......

"some degree of exploratory dynamism, courage, and (god forbid) even a modicum of commitment... "

And yes I did "trip over my inability to create a coherent sentence", that is one of the problems I have in recovering from a long and difficult illness, a problem which means that writing lengthy documents or ideas is extremely difficult, yet I still have a willingness to step up and help.  I just asked for a brief TS conversation first to make sure I wasn't wasting my time with ideas that couldn't work for technical reasons.  I don't mind you refusing that help, I do mind your personal attacks in response to genuine feedback.

 

[TinyBigJacko]

@Mr Gibbins- with respect, I think you're probably feeling a little like I felt, after reading your initial response to this XP-nightime concept.

In all honesty, whilst my tone was 'snippy', for sure, I don't think I've been outright rude, nor have I made any personal attacks upon you.You may, of course, have inferred all sorts of things from my words, but that's your choice, not my intention.

To the points raised - again, with all due respect, I had no knowledge of your application to join the dev team, nor of any conversations you've had with anyone - nor do I even get involved in that side of the RPUK operations. I just beaver away daily and get what I can get done, done. So the fact that you've demonstrated to others what your commitment level or interest level might be, isn't really germane to me, or this conversation, really. I am glad to hear that your mind is not closed, however.

The thing I'm struggling with, though - and perhaps the reason for my snippiness to start with, is that with one breath you're basically saying you don't like gated levelling, yet in the next breath, you're demonstrating to me (in that rather matter-of-fact but still unwittingly very opinionated tone that some people use when making criticisms, which really needles me - ie.  "It would be far better..." ) a system which is still basically a gated levelling system, just with more extreme end-points that prevent any sort of crossover on the midway. I really, honestly don't understand how you can separate this idea from the one you've said (inasmuch) "I don't like and I'm never going to play..." - I don't get it, really. They are both flavours from the same strawberry, just sliced differently.

Is it really just that the words 'XP' and 'levels' are somehow evoking a different thought and feel in your mind, than 'reputation' does? If so, it's a discussion we've had internally in the dev dept a few times... I actually regard our current system as more indicative of 'civic reputation' than actual 'experience' - but in gaming terms, it amounts to the same thing. Its intention was (I believe... though I never promoted it or decided upon it, though I'm prepared to help code it and try to make it fly) to *enable* the player to feel a degree of accomplishment that wasn't present on Altis, and at the same time, to prevent new-spawn hobos from laying hands on all the dangerous tools and toys within the first few minutes of their life, only to raise merry hell and result in lots of death, RDM, comp-requests, bans and masses for work for admins, cops and innocent-victim players alike. On the former point, I concur that there was (until recently) much to be done to make the accomplishment *feel* like fun and reward, and to tone down the grind... but this has been done in spades, and the feedback we're getting generally is much, much more positive and optimistic now. I don't intend to be complacent, but it's a promising sign that we're headed in the right way. On the latter point, there is very little 'quickspawn RDM' in Tanoa beyond the occasional nutjob-with-a-quad, and this normally never gets far beyond the airport spawn (which was its intention too - most RDMers will simply die en-route to Georgetown, thus ensuring that Georgetown isn't quite like Kavala - the psycho-capital of Altis!).

So... with respect, whether you like it or not, and whether you're hard-set on never playing Tanoa or not (an opening stance which also needled me, if I'm honest), the fact is, the XP/levelling system is a) not *that* different from your own proposal and b) actually working pretty well, all things considered. And like all things in this project, it is not set in solid stone, and will doubtless be tweaked, or even evolve - perhaps even massively - as time and effort allows, as popular support desires, and as long as my love for and commitment to the project remains.

In response to your requests for specific clarification, normally, I'd say 'No spoilers! Give it a try - suck it and see - you might like it!', but given you've already said you're never going to play Tanoa while there is XP involved, instead for the pure benefit of academic research, I'll say this: The illegal things you get XP-deductions for, do not include gathering, and never have. Processing, yes. Selling, yes. The items you gather are, in themselves, illegal, but you don't get XP damage for being caught with them - only cash fines and RP opportunities with the cops. So everything I said (and meant) about the opportunities for drug barons to organise massive daylight gathering runs with their 'gang-worker teams' (or even human-trafficked hostages at gunpoint) are completely possible. Vehicles can be stored away at the ends of daylight gathering runs, in preparation for a night-time of naughtiness - or just driven around the island with a knowing swagger, waiting for the sun to go down. Obviously, the shorter night-time vs the day means that there is technically a pinch-point at processing and sales locations at night, and life is actually a little easier for the cops and harder for the druggies... but that's all the more opportunity for encounters and fun RP. Conversely, there is nothing to stop the brave or unconcerned drug-baron from doing his processing and selling in broad daylight too, if he wants. He just needs to be able to either bear the loss of those XP points, or rebalance and replace them with his next set of operations - and again, this is deliberate. It's intended to ensure that people DON'T just do the same old thing, day in, day out, predictably and boringly, and instead, mix it up a bit; good and bad, inconsequential and impacting, yin and yang. Balance. Karma. Reputation. Experience...

I would be lying (and a fool) if I said we are 'mission-complete' or that everything is perfect. God knows that isn't true. There is still much balancing to be done, and many things are still not even placed on the map yet  - air police, crime units, taxis, vehicle repair trucks, medics, more or different gather/process/sales challenges, farming maybe, and a load of other stuff I'm not even going to hint at yet...the list is endless. The likelihood of all that stuff getting done, and being put in, hinges very much upon the reactions I get from others when I slave away on these things, day in, day out, and put them up for public viewing. One form of response is likely to encourage me to spend even more of my time, ignoring my family and working 20 hour days, and bring to my attention both the good, and the bad, in ways that demonstrate that a person may not fully agree with, or even like a thing... but is still broadly supportive of what I'm doing, and cares enough to be nice when flinging doubts or criticisms around. 

The other form of response is what my mum used to call 'dog in a manger': "I don't like this... this is what you SHOULD be doing... this is what you NEED to be doing... this is why I am NEVER going to bother with your game..." That kind of response, in all honesty, makes me seethe. It makes me want to say all sorts of really, really rude words, stick pins in effigies of people, and throw my laptop at my fireplace, and instead give it all up and grow potatoes for a living and sell them to unsuspecting PC buyers. Of course, that feeling is transient, and I am seething a lot less this morning than I was last night... and I know that maintaining my normally-thick skin and ignoring unhelpful or opinionated criticism that doesn't make total sense (or is demonstrably at odds even with itself) would be better for my own peace-of-mind... But we are all human, aren't we? We all have feelings - including those of us who beaver away building game experiences for other people to enjoy, for free. As I said, none of us are perfect.

By all means, don't like something - that's your right - but please... don't think you can just say what you said in the way you said it, and not hurt anyone's feelings, or at least piss them off for a while. If you don't like something so much that you're prepared to open your criticisms with (paraphrasing) "I don't like XYZ so I'm never going to play your thing..." and then go straight into an "it's all wrong because...", like you are some kind of world expert on games design, please don't be surprised if you receive a tad of 'snippiness' in return.

Would you approach a street musician with the same degree of tact and diplomacy, I wonder? "I must say mate, I hate the way you play your trumpet and the sound it makes, so I'm never going to listen to your songs... but what you SHOULD be playing is this tune on a bugle which is basically the same but with the notes in a different order..."

If I did that, I'd half-expect to be walking to my train with a trumpet forcefully shoved up my ass... but I guess at least it'd be quiet and peaceful now, so maybe not a total loss in the end.

Anyway - to close... I've heard your point. I don't fully agree, but I've listened to it, attempted to address it, answered your queries and have refrained (in both posts) from being properly bad-ass rude - and I'm not setting out to destroy you or anyone... but I do have feelings too. Please (and this goes for anyone who's read this far, and likes to share their OPINIONS with creators in sometimes tactless or thoughtless ways), just think about what you're saying, and how it may be received by the person whose art you're ripping apart. There's a nice way to do it, and a not-so-nice way. One way gets you love and attention, the other gets you snippiness... at best.

On that note, farewell, peace out, and I genuinely hope one day you'll give Tanoa another try... and maybe one day you will get what you want, or even be instrumental in making it happen?