Vladic Ka vs Hoggie report. stance on roleplay

[Xkan]

So as some of you might have seen. Vladic Ka reported Hoggie for RDM/poor RP and he's looking to set a new standard for the server. you can find the report here: 



Now I posted my own opinion on the thread (Which is against the rules so it got removed (But I didn't get a weeks timeout, thanks ) but I screenshotted it before it getting removed and would like to hear the communities thoughts on this. 

My opinion: http://imgur.com/a/fY5gU 

EDIT: Spoke to soon, post restricted for a week rip

 

[Vladic Ka]

Actually this is the OLD standard for the server. The current standard has evolved into what it is now. Too many people jumping the gun too quickly and not exploring roleplay before opening fire.

Edit: the disturbing part of your post is where you say more people enjoy the gun fights than roleplay. 

 

[James Blezard]

It's not really a miss understanding when it is always the same guys who want these shoot outs instead of roleplaying. It's always these guys from Invictia, pavilion or whatever else they choose to call them self at the time.

 

[Mercury]

I followed the whole thing closely and although the decision was made recently to have him banned, (detailed reasons on the report thread, further discussion at this link https://youtu.be/dMYgCwWFao0?t=107 during a rules meeting) I thought I would throw in my 2 cents for the sake of the discussion. Vladic also mentions in the video that he intends to "have a discussion within the community" about it so here is my take on it. I'm going to try to avoid weighing in on whether I think the action taken was correct or not as the decision has already been made. I want to discuss the issues surrounding it. Iwant to clarify that I'm purely stating my personal take on the matter and I don't intend to cause anyone offence, nor am I stating my opinion as fact. I appreciate that some people will have different views to me and if you have the time I would actually be interested in hearing them.

Firstly, I honestly agree with Vladic Ka's general stance on gunfights for this community. I think me and the majority of this community would agree with the sentiment that gunfights should be a "last resort" and only used when every other option has been exhausted. This isn't to say that gunfights should never happen, it just means that they should only be used when there is no more potential for roleplay to happen in the situation. He's also explicitly stated that he isn't happy with the state of particular gangs being relatively trigger-happy and pretty much forcing gunfights onto other people prematurely, removing any chance for further roleplay even though more roleplay is clearly available. Vladic Ka likened it to an "epidemic" and from what I've gathered in my time on this server, it is a serious issue that is being seen in particular members of the community repeatedly.

It is abundantly clear that the outcome of this decision has been made to deter aforementioned behaviour. In my opinion, part of the reason the report was posted on the forums was to initiate this discussion and to make it clear that this gung-ho gang behaviour is looked at negatively in this community and will not be tolerated. Vladic Ka has said before that "it could have happened to anyone" and I truly believe that the outcome of the report wasn't a personal attack on Hoggie and that he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. This is the most in-depth report I've seen regarding initiating gunfights and subsequently RDMing and/or roleplaying poorly/not at all and I think that Hoggie was used to make an example to other gangs that act in such a way due to the prevalence of the issue at the current time.

I could carry on talking about my opinions on the particular details of the report but I want to keep this post as short as possible and since the report has already been decided there is no purpose in arguing the evidence. In summary, I think that there are a few key points to take away from this situation:

1. "I was told to do it" is not a valid excuse to break rules (including, but not limited to, low quality roleplay) and that personal discretion and common sense still need to be used in these situations.

2. Gunfights in particular and their effect on roleplay need to be seriously considered before they are initiated.

3. Gangs and individual players that initiate gunfights as anything other than a last resort are not welcome in this community and will be punished. I can confidently say that a majority of players in this community will agree that roleplay should always come before gunplay and that if people are intentionally trying to bait/encourage gunfights, this particular community will not cater to that style of play. This is a serious roleplay community and as such players should act accordingly.

Regarding Xkan's views on the matter, I don't think that gear should be considered over proper roleplay in any situation. Correct me if I'm wrong but from what I can infer from your post, you seem to have a "more loot = better" mindset and I think that this community values roleplay above everything else and that disregarding roleplay for the sake of keeping items is not "worth it" and should never be. I also totally disagree with the idea that a lot of the community "enjoy the gunfights more than the pure RP". I believe pure RP is what the majority of people come here for and was the vision intended by the creators of this community. In my opinion you seem to be verging on the edge of sacrificing quality roleplay in exchange for more gear/money which could lead to a situation like the one we've just had with Hoggie and Vladic.

Once again, this is just my personal take on the matter and I would be interested in hearing other people's views. Sorry for the extremely long winded post but part of me wanted to help out and spark the discussion.

 

[Vladic Ka]

I followed the whole thing closely and although the decision was made recently to have him banned, (detailed reasons on the report thread, further discussion at this link https://youtu.be/dMYgCwWFao0?t=107 during a rules meeting) I thought I would throw in my 2 cents for the sake of the discussion. Vladic also mentions in the video that he intends to "have a discussion within the community" about it so here is my take on it. I'm going to try to avoid weighing in on whether I think the action taken was correct or not as the decision has already been made. I want to discuss the issues surrounding it. Iwant to clarify that I'm purely stating my personal take on the matter and I don't intend to cause anyone offence, nor am I stating my opinion as fact. I appreciate that some people will have different views to me and if you have the time I would actually be interested in hearing them.

Firstly, I honestly agree with Vladic Ka's general stance on gunfights for this community. I think me and the majority of this community would agree with the sentiment that gunfights should be a "last resort" and only used when every other option has been exhausted. This isn't to say that gunfights should never happen, it just means that they should only be used when there is no more potential for roleplay to happen in the situation. He's also explicitly stated that he isn't happy with the state of particular gangs being relatively trigger-happy and pretty much forcing gunfights onto other people prematurely, removing any chance for further roleplay even though more roleplay is clearly available. Vladic Ka likened it to an "epidemic" and from what I've gathered in my time on this server, it is a serious issue that is being seen in particular members of the community repeatedly.

It is abundantly clear that the outcome of this decision has been made to deter aforementioned behaviour. In my opinion, part of the reason the report was posted on the forums was to initiate this discussion and to make it clear that this gung-ho gang behaviour is looked at negatively in this community and will not be tolerated. Vladic Ka has said before that "it could have happened to anyone" and I truly believe that the outcome of the report wasn't a personal attack on Hoggie and that he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. This is the most in-depth report I've seen regarding initiating gunfights and subsequently RDMing and/or roleplaying poorly/not at all and I think that Hoggie was used to make an example to other gangs that act in such a way due to the prevalence of the issue at the current time.

I could carry on talking about my opinions on the particular details of the report but I want to keep this post as short as possible and since the report has already been decided there is no purpose in arguing the evidence. In summary, I think that there are a few key points to take away from this situation:

1. "I was told to do it" is not a valid excuse to break rules (including, but not limited to, low quality roleplay) and that personal discretion and common sense still need to be used in these situations.

2. Gunfights in particular and their effect on roleplay need to be seriously considered before they are initiated.

3. Gangs and individual players that initiate gunfights as anything other than a last resort are not welcome in this community and will be punished. I can confidently say that a majority of players in this community will agree that roleplay should always come before gunplay and that if people are intentionally trying to bait/encourage gunfights, this particular community will not cater to that style of play. This is a serious roleplay community and as such players should act accordingly.

Regarding Xkan's views on the matter, I don't think that gear should be considered over proper roleplay in any situation. Correct me if I'm wrong but from what I can infer from your post, you seem to have a "more loot = better" mindset and I think that this community values roleplay above everything else and that disregarding roleplay for the sake of keeping items is not "worth it" and should never be. I also totally disagree with the idea that a lot of the community "enjoy the gunfights more than the pure RP". I believe pure RP is what the majority of people come here for and was the vision intended by the creators of this community. In my opinion you seem to be verging on the edge of sacrificing quality roleplay in exchange for more gear/money which could lead to a situation like the one we've just had with Hoggie and Vladic.

Once again, this is just my personal take on the matter and I would be interested in hearing other people's views. Sorry for the extremely long winded post but part of me wanted to help out and spark the discussion.

This guy gets it! If I was smart this is what I would have said. 

 

[Ponty]

It's not really a miss understanding when it is always the same guys who want these shoot outs instead of roleplaying. It's always these guys from Invictia, pavilion or whatever else they choose to call them self at the time.




 

Do not name and shame gangs/faction/people. 

There are bad eggs everywhere, don't go putting them in the frying pan expecting nobody to react.

 

[Hololock]

It's not really a miss understanding when it is always the same guys who want these shoot outs instead of roleplaying. It's always these guys from Invictia, pavilion or whatever else they choose to call them self at the time.

Trust me if we just wanted gunfights we wouldn't be here for them

1 Because staff wouldn't allow it (as it should be)

2 There are far better places to get a gunfight then on here.

3 I would like you to see it from our perspective and see just how many are caused by the opposition as opposed to us. I would probably be a rich man if i had a pound for every time we were blamed for something that wasn't started by us.

Actually this is the OLD standard for the server. The current standard has evolved into what it is now. Too many people jumping the gun too quickly and not exploring roleplay before opening fire.

Edit: the disturbing part of your post is where you say more people enjoy the gun fights than roleplay. 

 

*DISCLAIMER* This isnt another Hurr Durr red zone post but rather to illustrate a point

Clearly peoples mind sets have changed as have the servers over time (you cant even make up your mind if you want a red zone or not.) The last time there was a proper red zone with gang bases in it etc there was never the level of camping and gunfights in it to this extent. I have spent more time in the red zone fragging people then i have actually RPing with other people for one reason or another (mainly campers). The fact that people camp a zone where no initiation is required and its just KOS proves that people are just not as interested in RPing as they were and frankly your encouraging it (your as in management). You claim it to be disturbing however news flash its been this way for a while (the whole more enjoying of gunfights than RP).

@Mercury well not quite. Some people who read this might be aware i was on a hiatus due to my actions however i spent time elsewhere where redzones are commonplace and i can assure you that the level of camping wasn't seen in the zones where people gear up as people could get the fights elsewhere. Simply put people want gunfights and the red zone does nothing but facilitate this mentality that you supposedly don't want to enforce. 

You say the old standard but I m not sure to what period you refer to (one year, two year?) But in my time here well over a year the standard hasn't declined or gone up and from the videos i have seen of the past the "old" times had its own set of problems so lets not compare without context as that doesn't make for a good comparison.

Now to the report itself Ram states " Ultimately, I do not perceive this situation as being Vladic’s fault for not listening in to his radio mid-RP, but instead see it as a police officer dying mid-RP with no knowledge or understanding of why it happened. You need to remember not all officers’ are involved 100%, they usually are minding their own business and caught up in their own RP. You should be more careful"

I have been in a similar situation before and i didn't open fire as it interrupts RP, now if the threat was given by the man Vlad restrained then i can understand however the RP should of been left to continue or the gentleman that was in restraints should of issued a verbal warning of his own. Frankly the only issue i have with the report as a whole is that it sets a precedent for "i had my radio muted i didn't know" communications are forever a issue in the cops and just another excuse to add to the list doesn't really help. All in all being a former and current gang mate of Hoggies and being in a similar situation it should of been done differently. Should it be bannable ? Imo probably not however i suspect it was not the one offence that led to the ban on said person but that is not for me to comment on.

TLDR - Ban was fine times are changing and your reinforcing what you don't want 

 

[YoCo]

I personally think this is an issue regarding 'gang' initiation, more than RDM, poor roleplay or anything else. (Although clearly the growing shooty, shooty mentality needs to be addressed too)

In this instance for example, I personally believe that if the officer who got initiated on was the first officer to be shot then I doubt there would have be such a big issue.

I think there needs to be some clarification in the rules as to if, or when it is acceptable to shoot members of the same gang/faction, after initiation has been made. Such as, vladic clearly was not in a combat stance and was oblivious to any threat (was also not a threat to anyone else) so should it go without saying that he shouldn't be the first to be shot. But there is currently nothing in the rules to prevent this.

 

[Hololock]

I personally think this is an issue regarding 'gang' initiation, more than RDM poor roleplay or anything else. (Although clearly the growing shooty, shooty mentality needs to be addressed too)

In this instance for example, I personally believe that if the officer who got initiated on was the first officer to be shot then I doubt there wouldn have be such a big issue.

I think there needs to be some clarification in the rules as to if, or when it is acceptable to shoot members of the same gang/faction, after initiation has been made. Such as, vladic clearly was not in a combat stance and was oblivious to any threat (was also not a threat to anyone else) so should it go without saying that he shouldn't be the first to be shot. But there is currently nothing in the rules to prevent this.

Common (or not so) sense ? Already explicitly states not everything needs to be written in and i think for most people this one is a given.

 

[YoCo]

Common (or not so) sense ? Already explicitly states not everything needs to be written in and i think for most people this one is a given.

I think you underestimate how common occurrence it is that members of a whitelisted faction/gang are shot first, oblivious to the fact there friends have been initiated on. 

 

[Samatlewis]

Poor/low quality is a thing that will always happen and it won't stop, sometimes I don't mind it because it can drive us forward and make us realise that we CAN be better and it honestly gives us a goal to reach.

Although for newer members of the community they have only known ups and downs of the 'current' standard and not the old, for me and in my own opinion (not that of staff) one of the best times was back when EXP/TI/TKC/ were about (BEFORE they all turned sour and ruined their own names/ the original gangs NOT their rebranded names and bullshit) They were large gangs that all had their own rivalries. They weren't seen as hobos and everyone knew the quality of their members; be it combat or roleplay they were fairly good quality. They kept eachother on their toes!

EXP were personally my favourite because they understood compromise when it came to police interactions, they'd let things go (guns/members to prison/get stopped and searched) and normally found a good moment to allow a gunfight! EXP had fucking brilliant morales in-game as rebels!

TI and TKC went through waves of rivalry or companionship and no one ever knew which was which! Either or made the perfect match for EXP in combat and they'd put the hobo groups in their rightful place!

Essentially I feel that gangs stick together as people; there's no loyalty to their cause or to their names. People don't differentiate between fun rivalry roleplay and 'lets fucking kill them all every time we see them no matter what' as it's a game of extinction rather than fun sometimes. Gangs had their own code of conduct and it was common for them to NOT rob hobos doing copper runs or oil, they'd only aim for other big groups!

The red zone wasn't necessarily a place of instant death. You could go there and actually roleplay with some other weirdos and that would be it. 

The police were actually seen as more of a force of power; people would do a LOT more to avoid a gunfight with them (sort of excluding TI).

TLDR: More gang loyal, self respecting rebel groups are needed that follow a form of 'code of conduct' which will in turn heighten the quality of roleplay seen for the majority!

 

[Applebyy]

Poor/low quality is a thing that will always happen and it won't stop, sometimes I don't mind it because it can drive us forward and make us realise that we CAN be better and it honestly gives us a goal to reach.

Although for newer members of the community they have only known ups and downs of the 'current' standard and not the old, for me and in my own opinion (not that of staff) one of the best times was back when EXP/TI/TKC/ were about (BEFORE they all turned sour and ruined their own names/ the original gangs NOT their rebranded names and bullshit) They were large gangs that all had their own rivalries. They weren't seen as hobos and everyone knew the quality of their members; be it combat or roleplay they were fairly good quality. They kept eachother on their toes!

EXP were personally my favourite because they understood compromise when it came to police interactions, they'd let things go (guns/members to prison/get stopped and searched) and normally found a good moment to allow a gunfight! EXP had fucking brilliant morales in-game as rebels!

TI and TKC went through waves of rivalry or companionship and no one ever knew which was which! Either or made the perfect match for EXP in combat and they'd put the hobo groups in their rightful place!

Essentially I feel that gangs stick together as people; there's no loyalty to their cause or to their names. People don't differentiate between fun rivalry roleplay and 'lets fucking kill them all every time we see them no matter what' as it's a game of extinction rather than fun sometimes. Gangs had their own code of conduct and it was common for them to NOT rob hobos doing copper runs or oil, they'd only aim for other big groups!

The red zone wasn't necessarily a place of instant death. You could go there and actually roleplay with some other weirdos and that would be it. 

The police were actually seen as more of a force of power; people would do a LOT more to avoid a gunfight with them (sort of excluding TI).

TLDR: More gang loyal, self respecting rebel groups are needed that follow a form of 'code of conduct' which will in turn heighten the quality of roleplay seen for the majority!

TI/TKC/EXP were my fav too, Can you name two gangs now though that could possibly be the same as TI vs TKC?, Large Gangs are barely active nowadays thats why I think the police are targetted so much and after time the rp from it just gsts sloppier and sloppier each time.

Now since this topic is actually getting interesting and hopefully doest flip shit with people insulting each other, can we keep it that way and try not to get it locked )

 

[Mercury]

@HololockRegarding the first part of your post I think it is understood that people/gangs don't join and play on the server specifically just for gunfights but the issue is that some people are slightly too quick to initiate them. I think that the events in this report illustrate the issue really well - the gang's initiation literally ended perfectly good roleplay from continuing by eliminating Vladic, who was roleplaying with another member of the gang at the time. Unfortunately, Hoggie was the one that landed the killing shot(s) and so he was the one that faced the punishment in the report. Regarding point 3, I think that if initiations that remove the possibility of roleplay prematurely are caused by other players then they should also face punishment.

I also failed to address the red zone in my original post and wanted to clarify that everything I said there was regarding roleplay scenarios outside of the red zone. I think the red zone is just meant to be a place for people that are itching for a gunfight but don't want to RDM and in that way I think it functions as an arena for people who want to take a break from roleplaying and I think this is what it was intended as. I also think people are aware that it is any area where roleplay rules don't apply and that having it in the server does not "facilitate" the gung-ho mentality. If people want gunfights, they should take it to the red zone and not ruin potential roleplay in the other areas of the map. 

@SamatlewissI agree with a lot of what you have said. I do believe poor/low quality will always be a thing and that this incident should be an example of where roleplay (or lack thereof) has fallen below the bar of the required standard and has been recognised as such. I didn't play at the time you speak of gangs having more "substance" (for lack of a better word) to them but I will take your word when you say that there was a time when this was the case. You have basically explained a possible shift in the mindset of gangs which could avoid this gunfight culture and I personally agree with the idea that there should be more "self respecting" rebel groups. Easier said than done but I think this is a good way of providing an example of how we as a community can move on from this and try and reduce the possibility of it happening again.

 

[Hoggie]

Unfortunately, Hoggie was the one that landed the killing shot(s) and so he was the one that faced the punishment in the report. Regarding point 3, I think that if initiations that remove the possibility of roleplay prematurely are caused by other players then they should also face punishment.

I also failed to address the red zone in my original post and wanted to clarify that everything I said there was regarding roleplay scenarios outside of the red zone. I think the red zone is just meant to be a place for people that are itching for a gunfight but don't want to RDM and in that way I think it functions as an arena for people who want to take a break from roleplaying and I think this is what it was intended as. I also think people are aware that it is any area where roleplay rules don't apply and that having it in the server does not "facilitate" the gung-ho mentality. If people want gunfights, they should take it to the red zone and not ruin potential roleplay in the other areas of the map. 

In the end mate , its not my fault if a SGT on duty was unaware of the initiation on the police because he had his mic muted. If the mic was unmuted , he would have been fully aware of the initiation.

People say that he complied by inrestraining him , but he was still being held at gun point and was baving his weapon removed. Im honestly so suprised i got banned for this tbh. I got killed like this 100's of times when i was in the police for a year , so its just a bit stupid.

I feel there needs to be some rule in place for people to follow rather than ban a few long term members here for it.

It's not really a miss understanding when it is always the same guys who want these shoot outs instead of roleplaying. It's always these guys from Invictia, pavilion or whatever else they choose to call them self at the time.

I be honest mate , its not just the rebels that are the problem. Everyone has shit people in. I can name countless times when i have had shit / fail RP / cops baiting for a gun fight. And i rarely complain. But its if the rebels start a gun fight and police lose everyone gets upset. 

You have never played with Invictia / Pavilion like i have , so you have no right to say how we RP out of stuff. Many times we have tried our best too RP out of situations , but we just get denied by cops and recieve the insta remove weapon and jail. Not all police give poor RP but some do and it makes rebel life very hard.

 

[Smith]

The first victim of a gunfight is RP.

 

[Samuel Thompson]

I personally think this is an issue regarding 'gang' initiation, more than RDM, poor roleplay or anything else. (Although clearly the growing shooty, shooty mentality needs to be addressed too)

In this instance for example, I personally believe that if the officer who got initiated on was the first officer to be shot then I doubt there would have be such a big issue.

I think there needs to be some clarification in the rules as to if, or when it is acceptable to shoot members of the same gang/faction, after initiation has been made. Such as, vladic clearly was not in a combat stance and was oblivious to any threat (was also not a threat to anyone else) so should it go without saying that he shouldn't be the first to be shot. But there is currently nothing in the rules to prevent this.

 

I believe I have actually been in your channel reciting that emboldened text in the middle for you, as it is not clear there is a gunfight and there has been no form of conversation (notice the lack of the word "initiation") between that party and the party being shot. The definition of which party is which comes down to, in my opinion what part of the firefight/robbery/RDM that you are in, if there have been no shots fired, and there is no words said to someone, you can not assume that they are aware, it is unfair for people to be shot with no chance of knowing why.

To quote Vladic Ka from back in 2015:

"If you do not know why you are being shot, then it is RDM" - Speaking to the police board in a rather shouty manner.

I have remembered and used those words to justify and argue against since that day as a mentor/support and as a staff member.

If there is no firefight and no RP then it is blatant RDM and that is as far as I can see it all that needs to be said.

 

[Riccardo Walls]

"If you do not know why you are being shot, then it is RDM" - Speaking to the police board in a rather shouty manner.

This is the best way RDM has been described in my eyes. 

@Vladic KaMuch better then what you said in your last stream , if I remember correctly.

"shots,shots, shots" Something along those lines. 

 

[Hontah]

. 

 

[Rossss]

Do not name and shame gangs/faction/people. 

There are bad eggs everywhere, don't go putting them in the frying pan expecting nobody to react.

So if we don't name and shame how do we solve?

Yeah not all of invictia (etc) are bad however we see the worse.