Unban Appeal - Puppy1004 (Unbanned: 03/11/15)

[puppy1004]

[SIZE=13.3333px]Dear Admins [/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.3333px]Puppy1004 has opened an un-ban appeal[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.3333px]Your In-game name:[/SIZE][SIZE=13.3333px] Puppy1004[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.3333px]Your Steam Profile ID:[/SIZE][SIZE=13.3333px] [/SIZE][SIZE=11.3333px]76561198120548142[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.3333px]Your GUID or Steam ID:[/SIZE][SIZE=13.3333px] [/SIZE][SIZE=11.3333px]2a80945953fef555572c5ce2843a19d4[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.3333px]Date & Time you was banned::[/SIZE][SIZE=13.3333px] 10/29/2015[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.3333px]Admin that banned you (Check ban message when you connect to the servers):[/SIZE][SIZE=13.3333px] Liquid[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.3333px]In your own words, Why do you think you was banned:[/SIZE][SIZE=13.3333px] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.3333px]RDM, I was involved in an active bank operation, I was dressed as a hobo so we had the element of suprise, I then drove up behind multiple cops(Who clearly knew I was involed because they have told me multiple times to go away), and I shot them. According to rule 13D this is not RDM[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.3333px]Please copy and paste the rule you think you broke:[/SIZE][SIZE=13.3333px] RDM - Random Death Match Definition: Shooting at someone without engaging in any form of quality role play (eg. Giving enough time for them to comply with your order) is considered RDM. (Punishment is a ban)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.3333px]Please give reasons why we should give you a final chance:[/SIZE][SIZE=13.3333px] I would never ever break a rule, neither did I break a rule here. Rule 13D states: “13D) When the blasting charge has been planted it is considered that any opportunity for negotiation is over. After this the police may try to storm the building with armed police. At this point any combat is not considered RDM”, I was involved in the bank op, I was there when the blasting charges went of, I was even negotiationg with Axolotl as you can see here: [/SIZE][SIZE=13.3333px]http://i.imgur.com/V7C5Bfh.jpg[/SIZE][SIZE=13.3333px] In my opinion, there was no valid reason to ban me, the video that Liquid showed only showed 1% of the entire thing. As you can see here: [/SIZE][SIZE=13.3333px]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjAuS6Dk668&feature=youtu.be[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.3333px]This clearly makes it look like RDM, whilst multiple shots/warnings have been exchanged between me and the police officers.[/SIZE]

Yours sincerely,

Puppy1004

[SIZE=13.3333px]If your ban reason is "Forum Report - Date Here" then search the forums for your in-game name and that date and insert the URL below: N/A[/SIZE]

Edit: Proof that I was genuinly involved: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4a3Fp-0Odw

 

[Liquid]

Hello!

The reason you were banned is because of the appalling way you murdered those cops in the video I recorded. The initial force of 5/6 cops who were at the bank op had died after you had negotiated. The cops in the video I have provided (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjAuS6Dk668&feature=youtu.be) arrived 5-10 minutes after the original set of cops had died. They had NO idea you were involved. If I personally was in a bank op and a 'hobo' on a quad pulled off the road and just shot me in the back with not a word being said I would automatically presume RDM and that they were not initially involved with the original bank op at hand. 

As a long serving member and someone who see's himself as a good roleplayer I would of expected a lot more from you. I personally think you were hanging around with the wrong crowd at that time. I have no doubts you will be unbanned but I highly suggest you think about how you approach similar situations in the future. I spoke to @Neobefore I banned you and he informed me I was within all of my rights to hand out he ban. I am in no way back-heeling the decision to Neo as I made the choice to confirm the ban.

You have also missed out that I banned you for poor RP/RDM. 

Liquid.

 

 

[puppy1004]

Hello!

The reason you were banned is because of the appalling way you murdered those cops in the video I recorded. The initial force of 5/6 cops who were at the bank op had died after you had negotiated. The cops in the video I have provided (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjAuS6Dk668&feature=youtu.be) arrived 5-10 minutes after the original set of cops had died. They had NO idea you were involved. If I personally was in a bank op and a 'hobo' on a quad pulled off the road and just shot me in the back with not a word being said I would automatically presume RDM and that they were not initially involved with the original bank op at hand. 

As a long serving member and someone who see's himself as a good roleplayer I would of expected a lot more from you. I personally think you were hanging around with the wrong crowd at that time. I have no doubts you will be unbanned but I highly suggest you think about how you approach similar situations in the future. I spoke to @Neobefore I banned you and he informed me I was within all of my rights to hand out he ban. I am in no way back-heeling the decision to Neo as I made the choice to confirm the ban.

You have also missed out that I banned you for poor RP/RDM. 

Liquid.

 

1. That is a communication error between the cops, not me. If I was in the position IRL and cops were shooting at my gang mates, then I would most likely shoot them as well, if I had the oppurtunity, which occured in-game. 

2. That is fair enough

I have one last question, what difference would it have made if I were to kill them fully geared compared to killing them in 'hobo' clothing? Going in full gear only brings more risk for me to, because I can be seen as a possible threat. It is the 'guerilla Warfare', which is defined as:

" Guerrilla warfare is a form of irregular warfare in which a small group of combatants such as armed civilians orirregulars use military tactics including ambushes, sabotage, raids, petty warfare, hit-and-run tactics, and mobility to fight a larger and less-mobile traditional military. "

I was an armed civilian applying the 'hit-and-run' tactic in this case, because this happens in real life, I do not class it as poor RP. But that is my opinion

Puppy1004

 

[Liquid]

1. That is a communication error between the cops, not me. If I was in the position IRL and cops were shooting at my gang mates, then I would most likely shoot them as well, if I had the oppurtunity, which occured in-game.

2. That is fair enough

I have one last question, what difference would it have made if I were to kill them fully geared compared to killing them in 'hobo' clothing? Going in full gear only brings more risk for me to, because I can be seen as a possible threat. It is the 'guerilla Warfare', which is defined as:

" Guerrilla warfare is a form of irregular warfare in which a small group of combatants such as armed civilians orirregulars use military tactics including ambushes, sabotage, raids, petty warfare, hit-and-run tactics, and mobility to fight a larger and less-mobile traditional military. "

I was an armed civilian applying the 'hit-and-run' tactic in this case, because this happens in real life, I do not class it as poor RP. But that is my opinion

Puppy1004

Apologies for the slow pace of replies, as I am currently trying to organise a small event on the server. 

I am fully aware of your intentions and tactics, but I'm sure if it happened to you or many many other players on this server it would be considered as poor RP and whoever it happened to would be likely upset. Regardless that it was a bank operation or not the way you (and others with their backpacking of guns right after killing a cop) portrayed yourselves in that situation was inexcusable in my eyes. Just because they are police officers does not give anyone the right to dish out the worlds smallest compliance and find the simplest reason to murder them. It's unfair. 

I have nothing more to say about the matter. I believe I was in my full rights to issue the ban and I will always believe that is the case. This server is for everyone's enjoyment. All the best.

Liquid.

 

[puppy1004]

Apologies for the slow pace of replies, as I am currently trying to organise a small event on the server. 

I am fully aware of your intentions and tactics, but I'm sure if it happened to you or many many other players on this server it would be considered as poor RP and whoever it happened to would be likely upset. Regardless that it was a bank operation or not the way you (and others with their backpacking of guns right after killing a cop) portrayed yourselves in that situation was inexcusable in my eyes. Just because they are police officers does not give anyone the right to dish out the worlds smallest compliance and find the simplest reason to murder them. It's unfair. 

I have nothing more to say about the matter. I believe I was in my full rights to issue the ban and I will always believe that is the case. This server is for everyone's enjoyment. All the best.

Liquid.

I agree with the server being for all enjoyment... I'll even tag @Taylor2366 (one of the cops that I killed) he can confirm that he did not mind getting killed by a hobo, and actually found it 'a smart tactic'.

Edit: Neither did @Reece they can both confirm it on this post.

 

[Reece]

I agree with the server being for all enjoyment... I'll even tag @Taylor2366 (one of the cops that I killed) he can confirm that he did not mind getting killed by a hobo, and actually found it 'a smart tactic'.

Edit: Neither did @Reece they can both confirm it on this post.

It is true, me and @Taylor2366 did not mind. Personally I thought of it being an odd tactic however it worked, I don't feel it would have been as effective if we had better communications. I am going to leave my statement here as to not cause arguments.

 

[Moon Man]

As I was involved in this I'd like to say something... What Puppy did wasn't against the rules, he used a common a misconception of hobos by the Police to his advantage. This was entirely the fault of the Police for bad communication. We shouldn't ban people for being smart and inventive, we should applaud them. If there's anything to be learned here it's that the Police need better communication and also need to be more vigilant. Also Puppy is a lovely and helpful guy that's done loads for this community in his role as a mentor   

 

[Liquid]

I think we both know you're going to be unbanned due to your reputation on the server. There is no point in tagging people who you've asked to comment. 

Liquid.

 

[Moon Man]

He didn't ask me, I regard him as a friend. I was drafting my post before he tagged me...

 

[Jamz]

I don't want an Unban Appeal to turn into a discussion topic, this makes it so much more difficult for an Admin.

Topic Locked - Pending Admin review.

Jamz

 

[Neo]

The issue was this,

We're a serious roleplay community...

for rebels, this game is easymode.. all the cops wear obvious uniform....

now in the video you were banned with, you drove, dressed as a hobo, on a quadbike behind police in a gunfight, and shot them in the back....

No warnings, No compliance, no chance...

Without metagaming, how are police meant to know who's involved, and who's not?

 

[puppy1004]

The issue was this,

We're a serious roleplay community...

for rebels, this game is easymode.. all the cops wear obvious uniform....

now in the video you were banned with, you drove, dressed as a hobo, on a quadbike behind police in a gunfight, and shot them in the back....

No warnings, No compliance, no chance...

Without metagaming, how are police meant to know who's involved, and who's not?

By doing the same as we rebels are doing, by looking at their surroundings, observing and not just mindlessly running into a gun-fight. Sure, the police is wearing uniforms but would it have made a difference if I were to go up behind them in a sport hatchback with full gear? I think it does, and that is the thing that dispites me the most... IRL you are can not see who the enemy is, you can only see it by observing your surroundings and keeping good communication.

The police didn't have clear communication during this bank OP as you can see here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9G31JTBT1c&feature=youtu.be 

To make my point clear, it SHOULD not matter how I look, which clearly mattered... They were going to get shot anyway...

To anwser this  "Without metagaming, how are police meant to know who's involved, and who's not?" :

• Checking the surroundings
  
• Have better communication
  
• Do not run into a firefight mindlessly, scout it first
  
• ALWAYS check your back
  
• By just leaving the scene and not going to the scene where 10+ cops already have been killed... 
  

Now, you're saying that it does matter how I look in-game, it should not matter what I look like in-game, the only thing that would change if I were rebel cloting is: officers would be able to identify me by my clothing, which in my eyes is a huge disadvantage, if I were to get KoS'd by those cops then it would not be RDM because, 'oh well, they are involved.'. I am involved aswell, shots were exchanged, they were already being shot at, they have fired shots, it is not my mistake here... I have not RDM'd anyone according to the rules. 

I know the RP could be better, but so can anyones, everything has space for improvement. Nobody is perfect, everone makes mistakes. I am willing to admit my mistakes if you show me, clearly, what I have done wrong according to the rules. Because, I would like to remind you, I fall under rule 13D as I was genuinly involved.

So, if a cop were to drive up to me, dressed as a 'normal' cop(Non-AR), with a gun and shoot me in the back when I was shooting at his fellow cops, that would be RDM/Bad RP to because: No warnings, No compliance, No change and me not having a change to identify them as AR.

Unfortunatly, this will not be the case. So I do not understand why it the same principel would apply for rebels/civilians. Because if this were the case, then a lot of the police force would be in the same hole that I am in right now.

Again, I am willing to admit my mistakes if you can clearly point out my wrong doings, keep in mind that I was involved, I was the negotiator, I had been warned to go away multiple times, I have been spotted. There is only so much I can do before actually getting involved in the shoot out as well.

Am I now being told that I were to participate in a bank op, that I have to look like a possible suspect for the police or else I am not allowed to take part? This is something that does not seem right to me, at all.

My final question to you(Neo) is, why should it matter what I look like in-game? If you anwser this question, then I will be glad to admit my wrong doings and write an entire apoligy letter on the forums.

- Puppy1004

Edit: also read through my 2nd post in this topic again, it clearly states why this is not a case of 'bad/fail RP'

Sorry if some things don't make sense, I am extremely tired, also this post was in no way ment to be offensive to anyone, it is just my opinion. I like this community a lot.

 

[BratJaggesVlnd]

Okay Puppy, a few notes on this.

This is a roleplay server, not a realism server. And some things simply don't work in a roleplay environment. Such as this tactic. It basically makes you invinsible. How would anyone counter this tactic? If they shoot at you before you jump off the quad, it would be RDM. If they shoot at you just as you jumps off, it would be RDM because "the pistol always comes out and I had no time to put it away".

You say they should "watch their surroundings", but how would that help? Even if they see you coming there is nothing they can do. Imagine an entire gang using this tactic at a bankop or at any shootout. Particularly cops, who can't say "Drive away or you'll get killed" would never stand a chance.

And the way you use realism as a defense.. In that case, no one can roleplay an ifrit as an ice cream vendor or a bank robbery as a cleaning service, cause basically... No one in real life would believe this.

Therefore, the players, especially long term players, are expected to have some common sense. If a senior admin and a moderator tells you you cannot use this tactic, why start arguing against it? And to put up a comp request for being banned before even being unbanned... That is just spitting in the face of Neo and Liquid.

I definitely think you should be unbanned as this is your first ban and you are a long term member and even a member of staff here, however this attitude and the tactic you used disgust me.

You are welcome to answer these notes..

 

[puppy1004]

Okay Puppy, a few notes on this.

This is a roleplay server, not a realism server. And some things simply don't work in a roleplay environment. Such as this tactic. It basically makes you invinsible. How would anyone counter this tactic? If they shoot at you before you jump off the quad, it would be RDM. If they shoot at you just as you jumps off, it would be RDM because "the pistol always comes out and I had no time to put it away".

You say they should "watch their surroundings", but how would that help? Even if they see you coming there is nothing they can do. Imagine an entire gang using this tactic at a bankop or at any shootout. Particularly cops, who can't say "Drive away or you'll get killed" would never stand a chance.

And the way you use realism as a defense.. In that case, no one can roleplay an ifrit as an ice cream vendor or a bank robbery as a cleaning service, cause basically... No one in real life would believe this.

Therefore, the players, especially long term players, are expected to have some common sense. If a senior admin and a moderator tells you you cannot use this tactic, why start arguing against it? And to put up a comp request for being banned before even being unbanned... That is just spitting in the face of Neo and Liquid.

I definitely think you should be unbanned as this is your first ban and you are a long term member and even a member of staff here, however this attitude and the tactic you used disgust me.

You are welcome to answer these notes..

Dear Brat,

Firstly, I would like to thank you for your reply. I really like the way you have typed it, congratulations.

To start of with, I would like to make you aware of this:

"Regarding my tactic, I was in the same clothing as I was in negotiating in. Yet the police negotiator @Axolotl decided that it would be irrelevant to pass on the description of the negotiator. If this was done, the other police officers would have been aware that a guy dressed like me, was involved in the bank operation. I have shown my face, clothing, gun, quadbike multiple times during the bank operation. I can not take blame for the police neglecting the fact that there was someone, that looked EXACTLY like me, was involved in the bank operation." This makes my tactic no longer 'invisible' as I have shown myself multiple times, and have not changed a single, tiny, teeny bit about the way I look.

I would just like to add that 'Axolotl' is just being used as an example in my statement, as she was the negotiator with this specific bank operation

I can most certainly agree with your statement about a roleplaying game not being 100% equal to realism, I would not have thought it was RDM if the cops would have shot me. They could have known I was involved if they just passed on the information regarding the description of the negotiatior(me).

Regarding: " You say they should "watch their surroundings", but how would that help? Even if they see you coming there is nothing they can do. Imagine an entire gang using this tactic at a bankop or at any shootout. Particularly cops, who can't say "Drive away or you'll get killed" would never stand a chance. "

Watching their surroundings would help because, it would make them more aware of the ongoings of possible suspiscious people in the area, if this is applied correctly, you can see who could be a potentien threat to you or your fellow officers. The officers can most certainly do something when they see this, for instance, they can say: "You there on the quadbike, leave or you'll be tazed and arrested for obstucting our duties as a police officer ", then they simple pass on the description and the next time they see me, they are allowed to taze me without breaking the metagaming rule

Here is a list of what can be done to prevent this tactic:

• Look at what is happening around you, it is a little but suspicious that someone is walking up to armed police men in an active firefight.
  
• They can taze me
  
• They can ask me to hop of the quadbike and talk to me
  
• They could just not get involved, if you do not get involved, you do not get shot. It is as simple as that
  

In regards to me using realism as a defense, I remember the last four times I tried roleplaying an ifrit, it went something like this:

"Ow, that's an ifrit *Scrap*" when I asked for why they have scrapped it, the response I recieved was: "Oh, it is not realistic enough". So, Brat, I am asking you kindly, where is the fine line drawn? Why do the police get to use realism as a defense mechanism whenever they have scrapped something, if they are, then why am I, or any other rebel/civilian, not?

In regards to a senior admin/moderator telling me that this tactic is not allowed, I have prior to me using this tactic, heared anything about this being strictly forbidden in a bank operation. Yet, the same tactic is allowed to be used in:

• Drug runs
  
• Firefight
  
• Robberies
  

But, when it comes to a bank operation, this tactic is suddenly not allowed?? That makes no sense, what makes a bank operation different from a drug run? They both:

• Earning a lot money(take NTesla as an example)
  
• Involve people with guns
  
• Involve the police
  
• Involve doing something illegal
  

Even if they are a senior admin/moderator, and do not get me wrong, but even they can be wrong sometimes. If they have given stronger arguments about why this tactic should not be allowed, then I would not have gone in discussion with them. All I am asking from Neo, Liquid, Brat or any other staff member, is to clarify, with the use of strong arguments, why this tactic should not be allowed on a roleplaying server? 

I have put up the compensation request because else I would forget about it simply because of the plain and sometimes stupid fact that we are all human, we all make mistakes, another reason for this was to clear space on my SSD which is filled up to 102MB of free storage at this point in time. You said that this was: "That is just spitting in the face of Neo and Liquid.", yet, I fail to see why it would be spitting. It is only done because I would forget if I did not do it within ~24 hours.

My common sense is perfectly fine, in my opinion, if even I do not see anything wrong with the use of this tactic, then perhaps it is a perfectly fine tactic to use? I know that you are an admin, that Neo is a senior admin and that Liquid is a game-moderator but, can any of you(as previously asked) clarify with strong arguments, why this tactic should not be allowed on a roleplaying server? The police could have passed on the description of the negotiator, in roleplay, and there would be no rules broken by them if they would have shot me after giving me a warning to leave. 

Also, this is my second ban, not my first ban. My first ban was for the breach of the 'New Life Rule', that unban appeal can be found here.

Brat, thank you for your kind words in your last point. I have to agree with you on my attitude, it can get a little bit out of control, this is only because I believe, with my entire sane mind(I have an in-sane part to) that I have done nothing wrong here, yet I am being punished for it. I do sincerely apoligize if my attitude was 'overboard', sometimes I can not control myself when it comes to my attitude. I have genuinly spoke to a psychologist about my 'attitude', it is part of me always trying to find the 'border(if that makes sense)'. I was told that I do this because, 1. I am sixteen(You would not have expected this ) 2. It is a bit more 'heavier' as I have no 'common sense' of social norms due to me being diagnosed with PDD-NOS, I am not trying to use this as an excuse, but I genuinly am unable to help this myself. I have been going to 'special' classed organised by 'acare(a company/group that is specialized in child & youth psycholigy)' to help me learn these 'social norm' which I have learned some things from, but I can not be expected from to learn all of this in one go, I need to take the time for that as well. 

Because of this, I am hereby apoligizing to: @Neo, @Liquid and perhaps @BratJaggesVlnd(if I have not yet changed it in this reply, I am really sorry if I did not), for my attitude.

One last thing, can I still get an 'official' anwser on my question? My question was: "why should it matter what I look like in-game?" That would be greatly appreciated.

But, after all I am here to say one thing, and one thing only, I am here to say that I am terribly sorry for the actions that I have taken during the time of this bank operation. I understand that these kind of actions are not tolerated on Altislife.co.uk. I hope that you can give me another change to prove myself to the Altislife.co.uk community, I promise.

I now also understand that the 'dispute a ban' forum is not the place to get into a lot of arguments with administrators, I would also like to apoligize for this. It would have been a lot easier for all of us if I apoligized and admitted my mistakes right from the start. For this, I am truely sorry.

I am here by admitting to 'fail' roleplayed this bank operation.

Now, can I be unbanned, pluz? And my question anwsered?

On a side note, Brat, I really enjoyed trying to give objection your given arguments. I hope this does not affect anything between us as I genuinly think that you are a nice guy, I think the same about Neo and Liquid(if we are not in a dispute )

I hope that I have informed you enough to convince you.

Yours sincerely,

Puppy1004

P.S. Sorry for the late reply, I had to get dinner  :Cool:  Again, as said before, if you can convince me that I have done anything against the rules then I will write an entire essay about me being sorry for my actions.

 

[Neo]

I think we both know you're going to be unbanned due to your reputation on the server. There is no point in tagging people who you've asked to comment. 

Liquid.

Reputation, and following the rules are 2 different things....

Massive

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Firstly, I'm not sure you're taking this totally seriously, some of your comments look as if they are meant in a sarcastic manner such as:

I really like the way you have typed it, congratulations.

allot of what has been said in your post is based on previous issues, previous experiences and the usual "other people do it and don't get banned".

The level of RP we expect should be higher, this is for all sides, but you've been here a long time, you could of said ANYTHING to them "turn around, you die, drop the weapons"...... 

The level of roleplay, people throwing guns in bags, then pulling them out behind cops, the jumping in and out of cars in a gunfight, it's all below standard. Things need sorted on roleplay, and what you did could be seen as RDM, dressed as a hobo on a quadbike, without metagaming, there's no chance of knowing you're involved, and even if they did metagame, there's no tags.

This was a rightly done ban, it was bad.... no... none-existant roleplay, and as such, your statement of;

Even if they are a senior admin/moderator, and do not get me wrong, but even they can be wrong sometimes.

how else can this statement be taken.... Senior admins work on the rules directly under Wilco and Cardoso, It's rare.. extremely rare to see them wrong on the rules... sometimes they/we can misinterpret what we see ingame, but we're in these positions because we can enforce these rules..

I need to be honest, your post is riddled with excuses, but as a long standing member YOUR focus, and those that have also been here a long time should be to envision awesome roleplay scenarios, to get the the front line of a "hold up"... not "oh i'm just going to drive a quad bike to these officers and shoot them in the back".

Unban accepted, however it is noted this is your second unban. I want to see a massive increase in roleplay, and I'm not on about the "messing around" roleplay, it can be fully serious, but good roleplay. Keep the cops on there toes. Think of alternate tactics to use, but don't find excuses to kill....

1 week no ifrits, and 2 weeks no weapons.

Neo