Thoughts On Initations And Rights To Shoot

[Ivan Dargov]

Ok I'm making this because initiations on the server are not clear at all last I saw it was "you can shoot if there has been good rp before hand" but theres a problem and Im going to highlight some instances when RPing is impossible.

Someone has a gun out already and is running about, if you try to give a long ass imitation youll be dead before you can even finish because as soon as they're threatened they will just slaughter you.

>When someone has a gun I often say that if they point a L O A D E D R I F L E in my direction at any point then they will be shot. I know this is very "hand up or shooty" but like seriously what am I meant to do when someone is running about with an MG42. I mean the police in real life would hardly do it any different. Why should I let this guy sit and aim at me when at any time he can just decide to pull the trigger on the spot and kill me.

>So could someone tell me if that is acceptable to do when confronting someone with a gun. 

Another really annoying thing I encounter is the "well you didn't say you were going to shoot" like come on, seriously can we just grow up and use common sense in RP? Like seriously i believe the "rule playing" is laughable these days. People just count on you to let them run away and get into position because they know more often than not you wont shot and if you do "UH DUDE YOU DIDNT SAY AND THERE WASNT ENOUGH TIME" like really guys are we actually doing this?

An example I had with this involved a certain cop. There was a gun fight and me and a friend werent sure if we could just shoot (some cop just opened fire on our friend without saying anything at all) so we decided the situation was too dodgy to just shoot outright. We surround a cop in a building with your guns aimed and say "put you're hands up and make this easy don't run" said cop then sprints away (HIGH QUALITY RP) now really I would have loved to have just shot him. The cop is dangerous and has a weapon and has already shot our friend, clearly he doesnt care about his life or want to comply so why should we then need to follow him screaming "DUDE STOP NOW OR IM GOING TO HAVE TO SHOOT" when its already clear he doesnt care. Just because we didn't immediately say he will be shot doesnt mean we shouldnt be able to shoot. 

Just look at it like this. Why should we allow someone to run away when we know as soon he turns a corner he will shoot us. Really I just hate this because people just get bullshitted by it all the time. 

No I do not think you should be able to just shoot people what Im saying is you SHOULD be able to gat people when they're armed and they decide to not listen to any of your orders and run away. I shouldnt need to yell "BODY IF YE DONT STOP RUNNIN IM GOING TO HAVE TO PULL THE TRIGGER ON THIS RIFLE WHICH WILL CAUSE THE FIRING PIN TO IGNITE THE PRIMER ON THE BULLET WHICH WILL CAUSE THE BULLET TO BE FIRED" because they clearly couldnt give a fuck about RPing and when they run they are just betting on you not shooting. You know exactly what they are going to do as soon as they get to cover so why should we risk losing our lives for people who would rather sprint away without saying anything?

Please give your thoughts on this because I would really like to know where the community stands on this.

 

[Banjo Jo]

We need official rules that would relate to FailRP if some person is outnumbered 5:1 but still decide to shoot if we decide to say "This is a robbery, lower your weapon or we may use brutal force".  There's no specific rules that include what is and what isn't acceptable and trying to include a long initiation everyone starts pulling out rifles. 

During a robbery if a person is being annoying or not obeying, just stalling simply smacking them on the head will get you a "Come TS lobby" since everyone is butt-hurt and doesn't seem interested in being a victim.

No one RP's , everyone is trigger-happy and run around in circles with rifles saying "or what" and as soon as you threaten them you die.

"Stop the vehicle or your tires will be shot" - I had this situation yesterday, I was already driving and someone said it and instantly started shooting. I was shot more than the actual tires or the vehicle this is terrible RP, it takes within a second to say this and open fire despite the terrible quality of RP. 

I always RP and enjoy talking to people and don't mind being kidnapped as it's usually what I look for. GOOD RP; not trigger-happy Shift+G rob player, zip tie player, loot gear, unzip and leave.

Initiation is currently stupid, at a common sense point of view anything more than 2:1 should require you to "value" your life and not just spray everyone down.

Many times people just keep running away even if you tell them to discontinue running despite seeing a massive rifle pointed at them and mid-initiation they begin to run since you didn't SPECIFY you'll shoot them in the leg if they don't stop. No one ever surrenders and RP, they just want to win every time.

To balance this initiation mess we need some sort of FearRP implemented and only applicatable when outnumbered or clearly unarmed and a person has a weapon pointed at your face. This doesn't cover any serious-RP but more like a casual RP during initiation where no one is ever afraid. Realistically you would be afraid and not just say "Okay, I have friends in the area".

No matter if you have friends or not, if you're heavily outnumbered you need to comply. However this community is a little lacking in the initiation department to when you can shoot or not, and usually waiting to be shot before shooting back which ends up being too late to retaliate. 

Please fix.

 

[PeachMaster]

A neat trick that iv'e found useful over the years is  accidentally shoot then apologize on Teamspeak. ALWAYS WORKS!  (Don't do this.. banter...)

Your situations happens on daily basis sadly and in the end it comes to common sense really... 

 

[Blanco Bullet]

My own opinions on initiations are that in the past year alone that a lot of the low quality initiations have been weened away to be replaced by better more thoughtful situations , Now there is always going to be exceptions from the intake of new islanders but that is understandable . However i agree there is a sense of ruleplay a lot of times instead of roleplay . It always surprises me that as a adult community it sometimes only takes a wrong mistaken move for some to become like a kids pre school that is practising law with all the rules and regulations that are flung about . 

 

[L1L]

there is definitely a issue with rule play atm, more times then often the first thing you hear is the template initiation " this is a robbery, friends and allies in the area, put your hands up" etc.

to me this is definitely fail rp because they have already decided what will happen to you and if you dont go along with it, youre dead.

I think the "quality rp" part in these rules needs to be enthasised a bit more to make sure there is ateals a exange of words that goes beyond demands beforw you even think of pulling a rifle.

 

[Ivan Dargov]

We need official rules that would relate to FailRP if some person is outnumbered 5:1 but still decide to shoot if we decide to say "This is a robbery, lower your weapon or we may use brutal force".  There's no specific rules that include what is and what isn't acceptable and trying to include a long initiation everyone starts pulling out rifles. 

During a robbery if a person is being annoying or not obeying, just stalling simply smacking them on the head will get you a "Come TS lobby" since everyone is butt-hurt and doesn't seem interested in being a victim.

No one RP's , everyone is trigger-happy and run around in circles with rifles saying "or what" and as soon as you threaten them you die.

"Stop the vehicle or your tires will be shot" - I had this situation yesterday, I was already driving and someone said it and instantly started shooting. I was shot more than the actual tires or the vehicle this is terrible RP, it takes within a second to say this and open fire despite the terrible quality of RP. 

I always RP and enjoy talking to people and don't mind being kidnapped as it's usually what I look for. GOOD RP; not trigger-happy Shift+G rob player, zip tie player, loot gear, unzip and leave.

Initiation is currently stupid, at a common sense point of view anything more than 2:1 should require you to "value" your life and not just spray everyone down.

Many times people just keep running away even if you tell them to discontinue running despite seeing a massive rifle pointed at them and mid-initiation they begin to run since you didn't SPECIFY you'll shoot them in the leg if they don't stop. No one ever surrenders and RP, they just want to win every time.

To balance this initiation mess we need some sort of FearRP implemented and only applicatable when outnumbered or clearly unarmed and a person has a weapon pointed at your face. This doesn't cover any serious-RP but more like a casual RP during initiation where no one is ever afraid. Realistically you would be afraid and not just say "Okay, I have friends in the area".

No matter if you have friends or not, if you're heavily outnumbered you need to comply. However this community is a little lacking in the initiation department to when you can shoot or not, and usually waiting to be shot before shooting back which ends up being too late to retaliate. 

Please fix.

I agree with you tbh but my point isnt you shouldnt be not allowed to run or try and escape ect, my point is when you do that and get fucking shredded by machine guns you have officially lost the right to call people to TS and bitch about how you didnt give enough time and didnt explicitly say you would shoot.

I would REALLY like a member of staff to comment on this because from what I see all the staff seem to have their own idea on whats RDM and what isn't in these kinds of situations. 

 

[YoCo]

there is definitely a issue with rule play atm,

xD

and I wouldn’t consider attempting to shoot your way out of an outnumbered situation to be failRP. I’d rather die than be taking hostage/prisoner by some people, Like @Fluqi

 

[Henry Atlas]

I agree atm there is WAY to much rule play going on on this community and not enough organic "i'm going to use my head" role play going on.I hate the fact i am generally forced to tell people i have friends etc in the area,I mean come on you just watched us roll up and jump out of a vehicle do i really need to be telling you my mates are going to kill you if you do something stupid? That's something you should be able to deduce by just the fact we are there.You as a person should be able to use your own thought and reasoning,these boys are clearly here to rob/kidnap/bundle me into a wagon,i'm not saying you should not  defend yourself but on the other hand you should also have the brains to realize you are in a situation that you have zero control over. 

I am all for not shooting people and anyone that knows me and has played with me knows my weapon is the absolute last resort after all other options have been exhausted.It just seems that people do not want to yield and are always willing to turn it into a gunfight rather then an "OK you got me fair play" situation.

I do like the fact that hands up or die etc is classed as fail role play on these servers but sometimes that is what is required when an individual is surrounded by 5 guys and still thinks he has a fighting chance(you really don't. Put your hands and don't be a nimrod)

I must be honest in my 6 months on here i've been asked to come to teamspeak once that was yesterday and was cleared up in within 5 minutes.

i never really have a problem initiating on people guess it's just a knack and a silly voice,I have even on a few occasions asked the person robbing me if they want to try that again.

some people however need to stop having the rules page on their second monitor and using it as an excuse to waste someones time because they didn't like the outcome of the situation they found themselves in.

 

[Simon Ross]

there is definitely a issue with rule play atm, more times then often the first thing you hear is the template initiation " this is a robbery, friends and allies in the area, put your hands up" etc.

Although this is the same thing over & over and you think its fail RP, the thing is that it works & you dont get in trouble for using it so why not just use the copy and pasted initiation which has gotten nobody banned because if you keep changing it, you are more likely to mess it up, do something wrong & end up on an RDM report.

 

[Ivan Dargov]

just to make it clear on what my ISSUE IS.

My issue is Im so sick of being bullshitted. Im aimed at a guy and before I can fully explain anything he sprints away in silence only to get his weapon out. I should be in full right to merk him then. Seriously why should I allow him to run off and get a gun when I know thats what hes going to do. Its just annoying because if you do shoot them they just scream failrp, rdm, not enough time to comply like mate the second you run off its clear you dont give a fuck about complying so when you get blacked dont come crying about RDM. Just because I never gave you a paragraph explaining you would be shot.

Also when someones got a gun on me saying "or what" I should be able to shoo them lmao. I always say if a weapon is raised and pointed at me its a threat and youll be shot still tho I havent been told if thats. Q U A L I T Y R P. Im just going off common sense and what would be happen irl.

 

[Kempi Anderson]

Another really annoying thing I encounter is the "well you didn't say you were going to shoot" like come on, seriously can we just grow up and use common sense in RP? Like seriously i believe the "rule playing" is laughable these days. People just count on you to let them run away and get into position because they know more often than not you wont shot and if you do "UH DUDE YOU DIDNT SAY AND THERE WASNT ENOUGH TIME" like really guys are we actually doing this?

The way I see it this is a rule to make the game more fair rather then to encourage roleplay. This rule makes people aware of when there is a threat of them being shot rather then just randomly being shot for not complying and talking. The reason you have to give clear initiation with enough time is to give people time to react and not just let you rob them and instantly shooting them without giving them any chance because it would be unfair. At the end of the day there needs to be rules to encourage roleplay but what fun is an unfair game and therefore there needs to be rules to make the game fair. The VDM rule for example is there to make the game fair aswell as in real life I would run over someone if they threatened me but using vehicles in arma to run people over does give you an unfair advantage because of the weird physics

 

[Ivan Dargov]

The way I see it this is a rule to make the game more fair rather then to encourage roleplay. This rule makes people aware of when there is a threat of them being shot rather then just randomly being shot for not complying and talking. The reason you have to give clear initiation with enough time is to give people time to react and not just let you rob them and instantly shooting them without giving them any chance because it would be unfair. At the end of the day there needs to be rules to encourage roleplay but what fun is an unfair game and therefore there needs to be rules to make the game fair. The VDM rule for example is there to make the game fair aswell as in real life I would run over someone if they threatened me but using vehicles in arma to run people over does give you an unfair advantage because of the weird physics

but the reality it all it allows is for people to run off, knowing they wont be shot then turn a corner and bring out and RPG and one shot you. Im sorry but if you actually think that rule helps the server then you havent been in a situation where youve tried to talk/initate then someone just runs away, pulls a gun and kills you or either you kill him and you literally need to sit in TS for an hour because all they keep saying is YOU NEVER SAID YOU NEVER SAID

like where is the common sense and logic? Dont run away from someone with a gun at you even if they haven't said they will shoot. For hobos I get it but if you've got a gun on your back and you run away you have lost the right to cry about getting shot when you decide to have a 900IQ play and and run away.

I know why the rules there. I get that. It just doesnt work as intended at all

 

[Kempi Anderson]

The rule works both ways. If you talk threaten someones life you should be ready for them to retaliate. Of course the rule lets people run off and shoot you but maybe the fault is that you let them. If you tell them that they will be shot if they run off whilst you tell them to put their hands up then you got the right to shoot them as they run off. The way I see it however is that the "initator" to the hostile roleplay should be at a disatvantage. Why should the person who is robbing someone and has time to get friends to set up be at an advantage robbing someone who has no idea there are people incoming. I think it should be hard and risky to rob someone because being robbed is boring. It encourages people to have some nice roleplay and get to an agreement rather then instantly starting to shoot. Just yesterday me and a friend had a dispute at advanced weapons because we were capturing the flag and they wanted it and instead of us or them ever initating we had a lovely talk instead and came to an agreement that none of us should have the flag as that was the only fair option. The only reason you could get shot is because you threaten someone or you are not complying. It's really easy to avoid gunfights if you so wished and in my opinion these rules work as intended in encouraging roleplay by giving a clear line of when a conversation turns into a hostile roleplay scenario and when I should prepare to talk or shoot. I belive the reason you think these rules don't work as intended is because you look at them from a combat perspective rather then a roleplay one

 

[Ivan Dargov]

The rule works both ways. If you talk threaten someones life you should be ready for them to retaliate. Of course the rule lets people run off and shoot you but maybe the fault is that you let them. If you tell them that they will be shot if they run off whilst you tell them to put their hands up then you got the right to shoot them as they run off. The way I see it however is that the "initator" to the hostile roleplay should be at a disatvantage. Why should the person who is robbing someone and has time to get friends to set up be at an advantage robbing someone who has no idea there are people incoming. I think it should be hard and risky to rob someone because being robbed is boring. It encourages people to have some nice roleplay and get to an agreement rather then instantly starting to shoot. Just yesterday me and a friend had a dispute at advanced weapons because we were capturing the flag and they wanted it and instead of us or them ever initating we had a lovely talk instead and came to an agreement that none of us should have the flag as that was the only fair option. The only reason you could get shot is because you threaten someone or you are not complying. It's really easy to avoid gunfights if you so wished and in my opinion these rules work as intended in encouraging roleplay by giving a clear line of when a conversation turns into a hostile roleplay scenario and when I should prepare to talk or shoot. I belive the reason you think these rules don't work as intended is because you look at them from a combat perspective rather then a roleplay one

I completely get what youre saying. Robbing is risky depending on who and where. Most cases if you are robbing a gang member the initiator is biting the bullet and dying but I have to disagree with your first part.

You say its our fault for letting them run off. I dont think you know how quickly situations like this can happen. Like what are we to do when someone sprints away as soon as they see a gun? We cant shoot or knock them out because they will just cry about it. I think you under estimate how often this happens. Like I said people rule play.

Lets say youre on a street and 3 of you run up to a guy and pull guns "Sir" if all you are able to say until the guy with a MK1 runs away doesnt say anything, and turns a corner, you follow him trying to talk and when you turn the corner all you see is lil jimmy with is MK1 aimed right at you. 

Point is why should we even allow that to happen. I really feel like the staff neglect the fact that in a lot of cases there simply isnt enough time to have RP in situations like this.

I always RP the the highest level but I cant do that when jimmy decides to have a 900 IQ play and run away. There has been cases where this exact thing has happened and the runner was killed and my friend was in TS for about 45 mins trying to explain why he was shot ect. Its just annoying really

 

[Caboose]

Again, backing up what Ivan has said. There have been too many occasions where I've been involved with players who as soon as they hear my initiation (with a gun pointed at them and multiple others with weapons pointed at them) they simply up and leg it.

Now say that said person has been knocked out. Most of if not all the time they will say, "you cant just knock me out, I didn't have enough time" and continue to ruleplay you. This then leads to a pointless ts discussion and hours wasted talking about something that could have been prevented had the person just used their brain and common sense.

This brings me to the part where this person after they run away is killed instead of being knocked out. I feel as though that if the person is armed and decides to run they are eligible for a one way trip to darkness. Because as a person I have to use my better judgment to think about preserving my life and eliminating a could be threat.  This brings to the situation where me and Ivan had initiated on an officer and pointed guns at him told him the usual 'hands up, itll make it easier for all of us'. He then ups and runs and we cant find him. But minutes later Ivan is gunned down by that officer and gained a clear advantage even though officers are the ones with a value of life.

There's only so much rules can dictate for roleplay, but if it's supposed to be played as realistically as possible, then if you've got a gun, decide to run, even if your life hasn't been initiated on, prepare for the worst. Because I know in real life that if I was in the same situation, I wouldn't be running round to make an 'initiation' just so I can either leg or knock him out and risk getting one tapped into infinity and beyond.

 

[Nalurah]

In my opinion (so not that of staff team/management) we have a fair number of people that unfortunately prefer quantity over quality. They will do/say the bare minimum to rob someone so they can quickly go on and rob the next person. People who will rob close to 20 people in an hour.

Sadly, most of the people that do it, don't even need the money. Most have millions on their bank account and just do it for the sake of getting more money.

It is a habit, and one hard to break. The thing is, if we would define everything with certain rules, our rules page would be about 10 times as long. There will always be exceptions. I usually ask if people ask me if it was a good initiation: 'Did high quality roleplay happen?' Often enough then it would fall back on common sense what high quality roleplay would be.

We simply can't define every exception, it would make the ruleplay even worse. Leading by example and trying to provide more roleplay scenarios is something we already do. But perhaps you as a community have some ideas as well about this?

 

[Aajonus Vonderplanit]

I would say it has improved generally as it used to be multiple people pointing guns at each other saying "or what" waiting until someone says something along the lines of "or you will be shot", this used to be the most ruleplaying bs ever, these situations were so frequent I stopped using a gun, I prefer it now as you don't actually have to say "or you will be shot" you just have to make it convincing of what will happen if they don't comply (pointing a gun at someone's head and telling them what to do and what not to do is pretty clear what will happen if they don't listen to you) yet somehow people would still call you to TS and try to rule play the fact you didn't say you'd shoot them. 

I often try to find a narrative before "initiating" on people, talking to them, finding out what they're doing so I can find out if I even want to hold up this person, then secondly if it's worth it but it's so difficult to get yourself in these positions as people just aggress situations from the start when they're clearly outnumbered etc, this just ruins all RP as they are instead of trying to RP their way in/out of situations setting up and running round walls etc.

I don't know how this could be cleared up as mostly these situations don't come under rule breaks but they do often tie into ruleplaying and using certain rules for immunity, they basically get away with giving fuck all role play just because most the times if they don't roleplay back it's hard to roleplay with them therefore it's not enough high quality roleplay before shooting them and this makes it so unenjoyable.

Onto what the whole "come to TS" after every time some people get shot, no names will be stated here but people know which gangs, which individuals call people to TS often, (there's nothing wrong with calling people to TS but after every situation? Sounds to me like it could be a personal issue) recently due to the mess of rule playing and people not always being able to roleplay to a high standard with the "victim" as the "victim" runs straight away and pulls a gun limiting the roleplay from that point onwards. Now to refer back to a suggestion in a rule being changed etc I think the "common sense rule" should be implemented, can be tweaked and whatever (yes you can roleplay as a badass and decide to fight against 10+ people) but my idea would be that it's common sense that when people tell you not to run and not to pull a weapon while they already have a gun pointed at you, that you don't pull a gun and hear them out, yes you might "lose" this situation but I feel the main cause of these rule plays and piss poor situations are down to people always wanting to win every RP encounter and that just isn't roleplay. 

 

[Ivan Dargov]

In my opinion (so not that of staff team/management) we have a fair number of people that unfortunately prefer quantity over quality. They will do/say the bare minimum to rob someone so they can quickly go on and rob the next person. People who will rob close to 20 people in an hour.

Sadly, most of the people that do it, don't even need the money. Most have millions on their bank account and just do it for the sake of getting more money.

It is a habit, and one hard to break. The thing is, if we would define everything with certain rules, our rules page would be about 10 times as long. There will always be exceptions. I usually ask if people ask me if it was a good initiation: 'Did high quality roleplay happen?' Often enough then it would fall back on common sense what high quality roleplay would be.

We simply can't define every exception, it would make the ruleplay even worse. Leading by example and trying to provide more roleplay scenarios is something we already do. But perhaps you as a community have some ideas as well about this?

I was using robbing as an example but you are completely right I dont like robbing people generally. When I "pull up" on someone usually I ziptie and take them away and make some RP reason up and just try to RP with them, like for example accuse them of being a NATO spy or something and interrogate them or do some other stuff to get as most RP as I can. Although I obviously like to RP (hence why I play here) its just annoying when people just run off and I can't really do anything about it. More often than not I will just be like "well he's gone, if I go after Im just going to get merked" and I'll move on. 

Still though, personally I feel that if Ive said "if you raise a weapon and aim at me you'll be shot" is completely reasonable. Some would say its "hands up or die" but I mean like I said they would hardly do it any differently in real life. Im not going to sit and get into a Mexican stand off with a guy with a MK1 running in circles saying "or what or what" only issue with my way of doing it is everyone seems it think its RDM ect because they refer directly to a rule that in fact doesnt even exist. It doesnt say "oh btw you need to clearly state you will do such and such" last I checked it said as long as theres is roleplay involved you can shoot.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts though.

 

[Kempi Anderson]

last I checked it said as long as theres is roleplay involved you can shoot.

I belive this is an issue. The general rule right now is that there needs to be a certain ammount of things done before you can shoot

1. Roleplay

2. Clear initation

3. Give enough time

4. Shoot

The rule for this is 

[SIZE=medium](2.2) Random Deathmatch (also known as RDM) - Shooting at someone without engaging in any form of quality role play (eg. Giving enough time for them to comply with your order. Count downs are not considered quality roleplay, please at least attempt to create an interesting roleplay story before considering shooting.) is considered RDM. (Punishment is a ban).[/SIZE]

This rule only tells you that step 1 and 3 needs to be finished and never states anything about clear initations and I belive this rule should either be changed to include that a clear initation needs to be given because right now the only way for a new player to know about this rule is to get told off by someone. 

I do see your point that the rules to not define themselves enough about initations and I belive they should be changed to more clearly tell you when you can shoot. This can be argued with that it's in the common sense rule but I just don't see how a new player is supposed to know you have to initiate when the rule for it just says you need to roleplay with them and give them a demand and time to comply.  

If I was to take the rules literally it states that I could talk to them for 5 minutes tell them to put their hands up and give them 20 seconds to comply then shoot them without a threat made

EDIT: Just want to point out that this is my understanding and what I believe and it may differ from how you interpret the rules and what you believe