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The 'active gunfight' rule. Is it real?

Dagre

Dagre

Well-known member
Location
South of England
As we all know, we are surrounded by a wealth of hidden rules that come under common sense, or written in the depths of the forums. However, you'll always have one of these pulled out of the bag when you query someones actions. I'd like to get clarification on one. Active gunfights. 

Example 1) You are minding your own business, you see a gun. You pick it up, and a rebel/police officer shoots you with no initiation. Is that RDM?
Example 1.5) The same thing, but it's not a gun. It's money, or it's a valuable item, or an unlocked vehicle. 

Example 2) You and a few other people are together going about your business. When one who is isolated from the group, starts to be initiated on. He is told to put his hands up, yet refuses, pulls a weapon and shoots dead his attacker. Because you are with that man, do the attackers friends have the right to shoot you as well if you pose no threat?           Example 2.5) The same scenario, except you have guns. You know your friend was killed, can the attackers engage on you on the assumption you are with him? Or do they have to further re-engage.

Example 3) You are driving towards the drug dealer, you stop. For no reason other than to sell, and you have a weapon on your back/in your hands. And you are killed, because it turns out that the police are engaging rebels, or rebels are engaging rebels and they see you as a threat in an 'active gunfight' which you had absolutely no idea was going on. Can they do that?                                           
Example 3.5) You hear the gunfire very clearly, so you know there is a gunfight. You get out with your weapon, do they have the right to shoot you still? 

Hopefully some of these being answered, will clear things up for me, and others on this community. Since the term active gunfight is thrown around as a police rule, and also a rebel assumption.

Thanks! 

 
For 3.5 I would almost defiantly say yes because you knowingly entered an active gunfight with a weapon therefore not valuing your life. In number 3 I would say most likely yes they would be allowed to if you are in rebel gear with a gun on your back. For number 2.5 if your guns are visible and they have seen you with him then I would say yes and no depending on your actions during the initiation. For number 2 I think they would need to re initiate if you don't have any visible weapons since it was not a group command. For number 1.5 I would say no for money but for a car I would defiantly say they would be able to. And finally for number 1 I would say yes most defiantly if you run into an active fire fight and pick up a gun your presenting a threat to people around. Now don't quote me on any of this at all I'm not an admin. Also I think you should always re initiate to be safe and it also provides for more and better role play  experiences which is what this server is about.

 
Response to 'Example 1 & Example 1.5':  As a 'Senior Police Constable' in the APD (Altis Police Department) , I've noticed that at every single shooting incident within the major cities people run-up towards Items, Weapons or killed suspects/officers. As a citizen you should value your life, when this happens IRL you wouldn't run up into a straight gunfight in between Law Enforcement and armed rebels. (Value your life) Basically get in cover, wait for further orders from Law Enforcement if they are close, you might be escorted out by a Police Constable so you can continue with your own role-play situation.

Response to 'Example 2': It all depends on the situation. In this case I assume that the hostile attacker(s) don't know that you and your friend are associated with each other. Seeing as your 'Friend' is isolated there is no way the hostile attacker(s) should be able to connect you with the gentlemen that just killed their 'teammate'. Therefor they have to re-initiate on you. (Otherwise that would be Metagaming, because they are looking at your tags)

Response to 'Example 2.5': Didn't really understand the question could you be more specific on this one?

Response to 'Example 3 & Example 3.5':  This is kinda a 'In the heat of moment situation'. Seeing as there is already a gunfight in progress in between Law Enforcement and another rebel group (To be honest there are obvious way to tell something is going down in Neri. Usually you have Police vehicle within the near vicinity, you are able to hear people shooting, remove your earplugs or something) It just hard to distinguish you from the other armed guys, which means you might be mistake for one of them. (That is the risk you take if you walk into an active gunfight between Police and a Rebel group)

Hopefully this was useful information,

Kind Regards, Ronald Strauss

 
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All of your replies are really helpful, but it's not really answering the point of where the rules come in to play. Since knowing that Gazalad was banned for killing a rebel who picked up a gun during an active gunfight, it kinda turns a lot of responses you've made on their head.

But thank you for such in depth replies, it's nice to see the perspectives from both cops and rebels. 

 
If an admin gives some clarification, I would also like to ask how come if The sombrero squad and North kavala petrol cartel are in a gunfight in the middle of a empty field, why are police allowed to just drive up and KOS without any initiation?

 
Weeeeee said:
If an admin gives some clarification, I would also like to ask how come if The sombrero squad and North kavala petrol cartel are in a gunfight in the middle of a empty field, why are police allowed to just drive up and KOS without any initiation?
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I wasn't involved with the situation, still have a question about something though. Are you 100% certain that non of your members were initiated on? Because in the 'Heat of the moment' people could just simply forget to mention it to the rest of the group. Hereby it looks that you weren't initiated on. Second option could be that a Police Officer initiated on the other gang instead and though you are part of that crew. He could be thinking you are trying to flank him, usually Police Officer's opt to use Non-Lethal force to upper-hand you. Unless he's being shot at, then he might switch to Lethal Force depending on the situation.

Kind Regards, Ronald Strauss

 
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Dagre said:
All of your replies are really helpful, but it's not really answering the point of where the rules come in to play. Since knowing that Gazalad was banned for killing a rebel who picked up a gun during an active gunfight, it kinda turns a lot of responses you've made on their head.

But thank you for such in depth replies, it's nice to see the perspectives from both cops and rebels. 
Click to expand...
Gazalad was a cop. He was meant to use rubbers not lethals. Everyone has answered your questions fully.

Common sense rule is don't do anything too stupid that no one would do IRL. I wouldn't dream of running up to a dead guy and stealing his gun in an active fight, who the hell does that? I also suggest NEVER getting out of a car with an illegal rifle in a firefight with cops vs rebels as the cops may kill YOU as they have no way of identifying rebel/civ.

 
Weeeeee said:
If an admin gives some clarification, I would also like to ask how come if The sombrero squad and North kavala petrol cartel are in a gunfight in the middle of a empty field, why are police allowed to just drive up and KOS without any initiation?
Click to expand...
Police aren't allowed to KOS, I think that is pretty obvious by the RDM rule. A pretty bold sarcastic assumption.

Police MUST initate in quality just like everyone else. We are not exempt from any server rule.

 
Dagre said:
As we all know, we are surrounded by a wealth of hidden rules that come under common sense, or written in the depths of the forums. However, you'll always have one of these pulled out of the bag when you query someones actions. I'd like to get clarification on one. Active gunfights. 

Example 1) You are minding your own business, you see a gun. You pick it up, and a rebel/police officer shoots you with no initiation. Is that RDM?
Example 1.5) The same thing, but it's not a gun. It's money, or it's a valuable item, or an unlocked vehicle. 

Example 2) You and a few other people are together going about your business. When one who is isolated from the group, starts to be initiated on. He is told to put his hands up, yet refuses, pulls a weapon and shoots dead his attacker. Because you are with that man, do the attackers friends have the right to shoot you as well if you pose no threat?          

Example 2.5) The same scenario, except you have guns. You know your friend was killed, can the attackers engage on you on the assumption you are with him? Or do they have to further re-engage.

Example 3) You are driving towards the drug dealer, you stop. For no reason other than to sell, and you have a weapon on your back/in your hands. And you are killed, because it turns out that the police are engaging rebels, or rebels are engaging rebels and they see you as a threat in an 'active gunfight' which you had absolutely no idea was going on. Can they do that?                                           
Example 3.5) You hear the gunfire very clearly, so you know there is a gunfight. You get out with your weapon, do they have the right to shoot you still? 

Hopefully some of these being answered, will clear things up for me, and others on this community. Since the term active gunfight is thrown around as a police rule, and also a rebel assumption.

Thanks! 
Click to expand...
Example 1) If their was no active gunfight and you just see a gun and pick it up and you get shot dead, yes it is RDM, but it could be a simple mistake by the Officers/Rebels, normally a quick discussion with them on TS will resolve it and you would be comped, that is the situation that is mentioned where SI Gazalad got banned for it.

Example 1.5) Same as before if you pose no threat and you did not know it was an active gunfight you would of been RDM'd same as before discuss it on TS.

Example 2) No they can only shoot the person who was initiated on as you said he was isolated and they do not know he was with you without metagaming you, so them shooting people that are just near by is also RDM.

Example 2.5) Same as previous example, if they can not confirm within RP you are with him then its RDM.

Example 3) Nope it is the same thing as why Gazalad was banned, they need to start some sort of RP with you, but mistakes happen in a gun fight a TS Chat will resolve it.

Example 3.5) Yes they do, as they can not metagame you, and you could pose a threat, if you enter a gunfight and it is very active you are entering at your own risk.

With all these questions it all boils down too a couple of things Metagaming and Value of life.

Metagaming - What you need to remember Police can not metagame you, rebels can not metagame you so if they are in a gunfight and see someone with a gun they will shoot you, if it was a mistakes and you was not involved talk too them on TS but give them 10 minutes to finish the current situation, most people once they realise they shot people that was not involved will quite happily give you comp and resolve it.

Value of Life - if you drive into an active gunfight which you can hear from a long long distance, you are doing so at your own risk, like I said before its an active fight who in their right mind would drive into a gunfight unless you was their to assist one of the shooters.

 
Police will never kill someone who has their gun on their back, if you are caught at neri during a police rebel gunfight, you should either leave or surrender to cops as to value your life, make it known to cops you are not a threat and not involved, you cant be running round with a gun out then get salty if cops kill you. When the gunfight is over explain you are not involved and rp if you can, you will however suffer the concequences of trafficking if you were doing a run. But i would reccomend you leave the area asap.

 
Samatlewiss said:
Gazalad was a cop. He was meant to use rubbers not lethals. Everyone has answered your questions fully.

Common sense rule is don't do anything too stupid that no one would do IRL. I wouldn't dream of running up to a dead guy and stealing his gun in an active fight, who the hell does that? I also suggest NEVER getting out of a car with an illegal rifle in a firefight with cops vs rebels as the cops may kill YOU as they have no way of identifying rebel/civ.
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Everyone has answered my questions with their own opinion. None of the answers at that point were set rules, just their point of views. That's what I was trying to say. 

WILDMAN said:
There you said it Dagre, "it's not really answering the point of where the rules come in to play" - which can cause a BAN. Well it makes me sad, when I think of people who played out a situation, which they imagined how it would probably happen like IRL, as they thought about while being in that situation, but don't know about a rule or are bound to play by those imaginary rules, & if they don't, they get banned.

And btw, I'm not a hypocrite Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, by end of this month you will know.
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But this is sadly how we must play. You can't act on instinct, you have to second guess every action you make. And only do things you know aren't breaking the rules, rather than doing things that you can assume aren't against the rules since they're not written. 

@Fuel - Thanks for the responses, and I can only assume from Neo's reply that you hit the nail on the head. 

I can can be right to assume there is NO 'active gunfight' rule that gives exception to RDM? There's the whole 'valuing of life' like don't run into gunfire and a slight exception in the fact that if you pose a direct threat then they can engage. 

Thanks all for lengthy replies. Much appreciated.

 
This happened to me the other day. I spawned in Kavala and had a rifle on my back. I walk out to the main road, find a bunch of dead people and I say "WTF" and suddenly get sniped from a rubber bullet 200 meters away from a roof. Then suddenly I get restrained by the cops. I sent a friendly teamspeak message and it turns out that I was wearing the exact clothing and carrying the exact gun as a person who just murdered some cops and had a firefight with them

Accidents can happen. From my own standpoint dealing with reports, if you willingly run into a firefight to loot a gun, get shot, and report the person for RDM. If you know it was a firefight, I will not take action. If you find yourself as a bystander in a firefight, take cover, go prone, put your hands up. Gangs if you see unarmed people running around, tell them "Get down, get away, go away, etc..."

 
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