Report a Player - Pvt. Kral [UNMC] - RDM

[simsy]

Your In-game name

Simsy

Name of the player(s) you are reporting

Pvt. Kral [UNMC]

Date of the incident

05/27/2016

Time of the incident (GMT)

22

What best describes this incident ?

RDM

Which server did the incident take place on

Server 1

Please (in detail) describe the incident

We have been circled and chased by UNMC helicopters for most of the evening, we had just finished a drug run in Kavala and we see helicopters circling above. One lands and we recognise the uniform. As he is alone and the trouble they have caused us recently we decide to take him hostage. Whilst driving to our desired location we get spiked and shot at, the hostage gave no warning and we were not spoken to by any other UNMC member.

Link to any evidence (Youtube/Screenshot)

https://youtu.be/JioIwGQ78no

https://gyazo.com/442dbfa23e8674e818a0243f49e04899

This report is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth!

Yes

You tried to resolve the situation with the player(s) before reporting

Yes

This is not a revenge report (Abuse will lead to forum/community bans)

Yes

 

[JohnJoeegan]

This does not look very good at all @Kral No initiation? Just shots ? 

And @Kieroneven though you were not reported you were borderline powergaming. I am not impressed whats so ever.

I wont deal with this since I am infact part of the UNMC. But this has shocked me, it really has.

 

[Thesoldier]

Can we get a longer video, I wasn't involved, but I'm being told there some shots before he was taken hostage.

Obviously a non-UNMC staff member will have to determine this. So I will post no more I call@Crumbleor @ArrogantBread should handle as they are the senior staff and are unbiased and non-UNMC staff.

 

[simsy]

We didn't fire a single shot in taking Kieron hostage, so logically speaking why would we then start firing.  If we did fire it would allow for people to open fire on us without the need to speak.  As a group of established players what you are describing doesn't make any sense to me.  You can hear Marko questioning shots in our video, but again we have no reason to shoot at any time as we know there is no threat to us if the UNMC followed the server rules.  I can upload a longer video, how much more footage do you require? If you are being told some information, could we see the evidence to back what you are being told?

 

[IgnorantBagel]

can you upload about 3 minutes before this video please.

Also if any UNMC have video that would be tremendous. 

 

[Khandamir]

can you upload about 3 minutes before this video please.

Also if any UNMC have video that would be tremendous. 

Being worked on but one of the guys having evidence has gone to sleep so that may take till tomorrow.

 

[Khandamir]

First video, showing the kidnapping of Pvt Kieron from our point of view. In our plain sight and has been in plain sight ever since. Surely kidnapping someone you identify as UNMC while they are visibly there seeing you do it is good enough of a reason for us to consider that initiation?
 

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More videos hopefully to come showing shots hitting our helicopter, but wanna point out that in this video between 1:00 and 1:10 you can hear shots being fired and someone admitting to have shot those. That would have been the shots hitting our helicopter. Add to that that we continuously had eyes on the ground vehicle with our kidnapped brother in arms and that after they were spiked, a armed man from the car was taking a position and I can clearly see why the choice for deadly force was made.
 

 

[simsy]

If Kieron had issued a warning about people in the area backing him up prior to be zip tied. Then that would have been fine. But claiming that because you saw something you can shoot without role play is a terrible suggestion and if implemented will take this server in a bad direction. As it would be possible to watch from so far away and then shoot whenever you decide. I am also finding it very difficult to pin point where someone claims to have fired anything.

More evidence

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[Khandamir]

Important timestaps:

Between 0:40 and at 0:50:

Someone in ts: Shall we shoot them down?

Someone else in TS: Shall I get a .50 cal?
--

About the helicopters following them

--

Followed by, faintly to be heard, shots at 0:51/0:52

--

It is very hard to hear but this what I hear between roughly 0:58 and 1:10

Simsy: Its not me its Crumbs

Crumbs: what am I doing?

Someone: Shooting the fucking taru

Crumbs: yeaaahhh

I grant that it's hard to pick out, but if a video from our side also shows shots hitting the Taru, I can understand why they took action. Video from inside the Taru has been recorded by Pvt. Guy and will be uploaded as soon as he is awake.

I agree, a warning of him he had guys in the area would have been very useful. But that is tactical knowledge and he appears to lack it hence why he is a private. I would have told you that if you like living, you don't proceed on the course of action you were about to proceed on.

I humbly request the judgement on this to be postponed untill we can show video from inside the Taru to make more clear why for our side this whole situation was a very hot one that had us on our edges and why it seemed to our guys the situation was initiated.

 

[simsy]

Thats me again saying avoiding the fucking taru.

 

[Khandamir]

Now that you said the word Avoiding, I agree that is what you said. So that means no one in the channel on the video owed up to the shooting, but it is clearly heard in the recording you guys heard those shots to. Now if those were from a random hobo, that is very unfortunate, but if those bullets hit the Taru, supposedly close to the opened ramp, that still very much gives us the impression your side had opened fire. Which technically still makes it RDM, but not intentional, as from where he stood, and where our guys stood, we had been fired upon.

If those shots were meant to be warning shots, they should have not hit the heli and ideally should have been tracer rounds.

I think, unless a next reply requires, I have said enough tonight and think we should await video from inside the Taru and a possible explanation from Pvt. Kral himself when we've all had a good night sleep.

That being said, I am speaking as a General here and will as always accept staff or management ruling, if they see fit to not wait because they feel enough evidence has been given.

 

[simsy]

If there is evidence of the heli being shot I will happily retract my report for rdm against Kral. But reading your posts and after the brief conversation with Kral. I would like a clear guidance of the rules in regards to viewing initiation against verbally initiating. I still feel it is wrong to think you can engage in a fire fight after witnessing what someone may deem as a wrong doing to an affiliate. As the person commiting the so called wrong doing may have no idea there is witnesses. Which is why I insist members in the same gang always hot mic and always mention backup in some way.

 

[IgnorantBagel]

Locking pending review. If there is any evidence to add please PM me on here.

Ill look at this tomorrow

 

[Khandamir]

More videos of our side:

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So to clearly sketch a situation here as example, to point out how this situation was seen from UNMC Side:

Cop A is standing on his own in Kavala and a hobo turns up. The hobo takes the cop hostage. Cop B is very close, around a corner let's say, and Cop C in a hummingbird has seen the kidnapping. The cops follow the hobo and manage to spikestrip the car and the hobo runs to cover with a gun. Cop B, set up at the spikestrip, kills the hobo.

Following the logic of the report, Cop B would be banned. Now, having been here for nearly two years, I have doubts that Cop B would actually be banned. It probably would be argued that the Hobo took a risk kidnapping a cop, part of a faction that has countless of men on the island who keep good communications and will be angry when people kidnap their comrades.

I understand this still should and could have been handled better and that the actual shooting is borderline RDM. I also understand that from the other sides point of view it could be seen as RDM, but there are always two sides to a story.

As clearly heard in the video, we were under the impression that the situation was definitely engaged and had been set on retaliation ever since. We clearly followed the car with the hostage in it and have not lost sight. We got told by someone involved to fuck off and leave just after we've seen one of us taken hostage. We cornered the car with hostage and disabled it, seen a armed man get out in cover and we took instant lethal action. It is heard clearly that Pvt. Kral acted on orders from a General, tho ultimately ofcourse, rule-wise, is responsible for his own actions, I feel that should be taken into account when coming to a decision on this report.

The UNMC command is more than happy to compensate for any losses and regardless of the decision being made here, internal procedures will change as I, as a General, feel that we should learn from every situation and take from that things we can and have to improve on. Regardless of the decision, this will not happen again in the same way.

Also, in the legal word there is a term called ''Precedence''

When precedence is set over a situation, in future this precedence can be used to defend actions.



'' By threatening the officer RP was initiated. The PCC believes DSGT Remix handled the situation quickly, professionally and effectively as seen by the result of retrieving our officer alive and in good health.  ''

'' No action will be taken against DSGT Remix. ''

I want to point out this is exactly the same situation. Hostage was taken, from our point of view initiation had taken place and Pvt. Kral acted quickly, professionally and effectively as the Pvt. Kieron was retrieved unharmed.

Would like to point out that, however in a different role, this precedent was set by the gang leader of the same gang involved in this situation.

@Crumble@ArrogantBread And with that, we rest our defence and leave this back to you for a decision.

--

Our sincere apologies if at one or two points in the video words were used that are not very kind. However, it is UNMC policy to make sure insults are directed at peoples characters. If people are insulted by the fact they are being called dickheads, I'd like to remind they had just taken one of our guys hostage and ofcourse our guys were not going to like them very much at that point. I have made it a personal point to remind people that insults are not to be directed at the players behind the character and am convinced this was not meant personally against anyone. It's purely the heat of the situation.

==

Since I have added more defence here, I feel it is unfair the other side can not. Therefore on my call, I unlocked the topic, so the other side can reply if they feel the need to.

 

[simsy]

Thank you for providing video evidence.  What is worrying is listening to your communications.  You can hear that someone believes you have properly engaged, then you can hear that you believe you can open fire as I still believe you can't.  Can we get clarification on this? Many times before shots being fired you discuss killing us, then you hear shots. I can't see any indication that the taru was hit.  Just the sound of shots in Kavala would not give you a justified reason to shoot, as shots can be heard all day.  Then onto the matter who fired the shots, you can hear from your communication's that it might have been the cops shooting, as you are flying very low over Kavala (also against the rules).  To hear Kieron talk in zip ties is disgusting.  Your use of a PCC is irrelevant in my eyes as that is not a report for admins to deal with, and its not for the police command to issue bans.  Since the PCC, I believe the rules have changed.

 

[Neo]

So, I've been watching, reading, pondering and so on, and this has been a tricky report, because as sad as it is, reports are what set the bar.

Now this gang, Paragon that's involved in this, I need to get things straight and to the fact.

The post for Paragon was created by Axolotl, so I'm going to presume they're the leader.

Many facts, opinions and clouded judgments were made here, and its hard to justify what is what. The biggest comment I keep hearing is "it's a revenge report", right now, I'm going to blast this out the water and not class this as a revenge report, which will state this is a legitimate report that's been created.

In regards to the "attempts to resolve", as long as they tried to speak to the person involved and talk about each others opinions of what happened and try to make a resolution, that's an attempt, even if an agreement cant be made.

Decision on this: Kral closed the convo, and communications ended there. Valid.

I also need to keep my own view in-check, as I was UNMC literally last week, and have had my own skirmish with Paragon today.

Firstly, I'd like to point out this post as linked above in Khandamir's post;



This is a post by the leader of Paragon when they were a CSI, its a very similar situation with the same result.

I'll come back to this a little later, but I feel its an important point.

Now lets look more closely into this, I'll point out that I'm trying to show every thought process here with this report to show there is no bias.

In the short video in the following link, you can see tracers heading over the chopper. I believe this to be police, however it's very unclear.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYqGUaegQS8

This could confuse things as some believed it was you, allowing them to shoot back, and others the police.... There's no proof or statements of what actually happened. Had this been the only interaction, I'd of ordered a full compensation from this alone, however there's more.

The first actions was Kieron shouting "oi dickhead", I'm not fond of this, but got what he deserved (captured), none the less, he clearly stated over the radio "I'm putting my hands up". He was being observed during this, and complied as per instruction.

In regards to the GPS incident, Kieron appears to be very salty, hands over the GPS but roleplays it in a sour manner, this is not something I expect of someone in the hiqh quality role-play group such as the UNMC, and as such, pending a discussion, he may be removed from this position. The fact he sat there and stated there he will "not talk" its not roleplay, it was bitterness.

but back to the main point;

You took one of them at gunpoint...... following your own leaders statement its a verified kill... they rescued their guy.... 

its on the same principle of you stating "stop the car" and then killing me without ACTUALLY SAYING "you will die"

12:54:50 : (Unknown) Simsy: 5 men with guns, you alone, you drive off. that is also fail rp. ours was minimal rp i agree. but not fail

Report against Kral Rejected, in regards to Kieron, a decision still needs made, and I'm going to talk to @Vladic Kaabout this one... calling them morons didn't seem roleplay to me at all.

 

[simsy]

So to be clear, if any wrong doing is witnessed, a gang is allowed to act without talking?  Also where do we draw the line with witnessing, is hearing "ok i will put my hands up" then following a GPS location before shooting without speaking also ok?

 

[Neo]

After talking with Vladic and taking into a decision made by a member of the staff team, Kieron will not be receiving a ban as this was done in a separate report, however due to the roleplay standard, we've decided that the UNMC is not the best place for you at this time, and suggest you take some time seeking to improve roleplay in wining and losing situations.

Report Closed

So to be clear, if any wrong doing is witnessed, a gang is allowed to act without talking?  Also where do we draw the line with witnessing, is hearing "ok i will put my hands up" then following a GPS location before shooting without speaking also ok?

Firstly, watch all the videos, they had eyes on from 2 different based air vehicles including one watching the map which stated "oh, we've lost his GPS"....

Secondly, it was a hostile act by a gang which stated the day prior they are at war with the UNMC.

Thirdly, Writing agreements which involve the removal from a member of the UNMC is totally unacceptable and unreasonable. 

I will add that axolotl's decision is based on a precedence set by SI Bob, please check the PCC to find this.

I think the best person for you to talk to is your leader Axo, as they understand this situation, there's also warning someone to leave the area which I'll also take under the same threat as "stop the car"