Not being able to take an officer hostage without 10 officers online?!?!?!?!

[Dir. Connor Portsmouth]

Evenin' All.

As some of you may or may not know, soon it will be against server rules to kidnap an officer when there are below 10 officers online. This was made clear in the post about taking officers hostage, and here's a picture straight from Neo.

And from CSI Fuel

Now I can't be the only one who finds this situation utterly ridiculous. I know that being a police officer on the server is a tough job, but doing things like this really isn't how you go about fixing that or amending it in other ways. 

By limiting hostage taking to 10+ officers, the police force is now forcing civilians to shoot officers where we would otherwise take them hostage, overall reducing the already questionable roleplay from lots of gangs on this server.

And just to make clear, I'm more than happy to implement this for hostage situations, but kidnapping an officer to take them out of action to aid you in performing a crime shouldn't be counted as hostage taking. 

Frankly, the police force is now just bending the rules on this server to make it easier for themselves and harder for the civilians. I wouldn't have a problem with this if it didn't reduce RP or turn certain situations like this into a massive I WIN button, but frankly this is all I'm getting from the announcement.

Feel free to discuss below, I'm clearly very much against this. I'll keenly await the abuse I'll likely get from police members about going against this publicly. 

 

[Dir. Connor Portsmouth]

Reserved because no doubt I'll have to elaborate on something.

 

[Walt]

As someone who has been in the force for quite a while I haven't really stuck to that 10 Police Online rule (when people thought it might be a rule but it was never set out in clear terms). Personally, I am not against the rule as much as yourself because I can see the benefits it can bring from a Police point of view, however from an RP perspective I can understand it could be damaging and I myself would be happy to take part in any hostage situation regardless of numbers. You get great RP (usually from both sides) and a lot of team work (from both sides).

What I would say, is that there are many ways at looking at this and that is the problem. From a Police perspective, there is a concern that Gangs may kidnap some Officers and then have their team begin a Bank Operation. Ofcourse, we will have to value the life of our Officers and either split up in a very efficient manor to try tackle both or focus all resources on the hostage operations giving the bank robbers no challenge. I would also say there is the concern that when there aren't many Officers online (such as today), kidnapping what few Police are available just makes the shift even worse as they will have so much to deal with already.

Now, I can understand your perspective. It damages RP and realism as you will be wanting to create a hostage operation, get some sort of financial gain and some RP and suddenly they will have to simply vanish due to the number of Police on active duty.

I wouldn't go as far as to say "the police force is now just bending the rules on the server to make is easier for themselves". I feel this will have been implemented to make situations more managable and controlled as Police are being held to a very high standard recently. I would also mention that our new PCC Wilco has made it clear he will be working hard to make a more efficient and effective force and so having a rule that ensures Police can attend such serious situations in good numbers almost ensures a higher standard of RP and a more proffesional operation carried out by Police.

Anyway. We've not had our weekly Police meeting this week so we've not been filled in ourselves regarding why this has been implemented and the reasons as to why (which I'm sure are valid). Once we get the information I'm sure we'll begin informing people as to why, unless a CSI wishes to explain it beforehand.

As for the abuse you are keenly waiting to receive, I'd be disappointed if you did. Nothing wrong with having an opinion about things, especially when they effect you.

All the best

INS Walt

 

[Dir. Connor Portsmouth]

(Walt's paragraph, shortened to make this easier to read)

Like I said Walt, I have no problem WHATSOEVER with this restricting actual hostage situations. My issue is that this stops someone from taking an officer in a kidnapping situation rather than shooting him. Now, instead of getting a cop to drop his gear and come with us because we've been spotted, now we've got to execute him.

 

[Starsky]

Well imagine it like this. There are less than 10 cops on the server. The server is full. Thats 90+ civilians. One gang takes a cop hostage and suddenly the cops have to abstain from normal duty and help the hostage operation out. They're most likely outnumbered. The main city centres are already spread thin causing more trouble.

It's rough being a cop past PC rank. But you wouldnt know that to the full extent Connor due to the fact that you left the force before then.

The current rebels hunt for cops, almost maliciously; as it is one of the sole things to do when hitting end game. As soon as that player list hits 10. Bam, as a cop you are wary of everyone because now you're a living ransom and it puts too much strain on the already lackluster sized force. Believe me when I say this; the ten officers limit to being online is needed exceptionally. Without this rule; you are taken hostage a lot more. This also hits the police officers morale hard and makes them not want to play.

Other officers can build off of what I said, that is my piece.

 

[Dir. Connor Portsmouth]

Well imagine it like this. There are less than 10 cops on the server. The server is full. Thats 90+ civilians. One gang takes a cop hostage and suddenly the cops have to abstain from normal duty and help the hostage operation out. They're most likely outnumbered. The main city centres are already spread thin causing more trouble.

It's rough being a cop past PC rank. But you wouldnt know that to the full extent Connor due to the fact that you left the force before then.

The current rebels hunt for cops, almost maliciously; as it is one of the sole things to do when hitting end game. As soon as that player list hits 10. Bam, as a cop you are wary of everyone because now you're a living ransom and it puts too much strain on the already lackluster sized force. Believe me when I say this; the ten officers limit to being online is needed exceptionally. Without this rule; you are taken hostage a lot more. This also hits the police officers morale hard and makes them not want to play.

Other officers can build off of what I said, that is my piece.

First off, don't tell me what I do and don't know. I don't need to have the rank to know how difficult the job is, I've got a brain and last time I checked I wasn't being critical of the higher-up positions.

Yet again people are completely misquoting me. I've said this for the 3rd time now. I DO NOT CARE about your hostage situation, I am completely fine with hostage situations requiring 10 cops on. I AM COMPLETELY OK WITH THIS, GET OVER IT.

My issue is that now rebels are being encouraged to kill police officers even more because we won't be able to simply remove a cop for a few minutes. Most of the time when I take a cop, I'm not looking for a fully fledged situation; I'm simply just looking to take him out of the loop for 5 minutes while we do something. Kidnapping isn't the same as hostage taking, yet they're being banded together.

If you're going to reply don't just skim read what I've written.

 

[The Shadow]

Well imagine it like this. There are less than 10 cops on the server. The server is full. Thats 90+ civilians. One gang takes a cop hostage and suddenly the cops have to abstain from normal duty and help the hostage operation out. They're most likely outnumbered. The main city centres are already spread thin causing more trouble.

It's rough being a cop past PC rank. But you wouldnt know that to the full extent Connor due to the fact that you left the force before then.

I'm just going to give my opinion do not take it as i'm ranting at you, it is purely an opinion.

Firstly:-

In my opinion this is no problem of the Civ/Rebels, if the police cant fill one server with at least 20+ cops then there is something wrong with the recruitment or your ranking system (getting promoted too slow) or even not making the force enjoyable (maybe higher ranking officers being depressing and moody around new recruits?).

Secondly:-

"It's rough being a cop past PC rank. But you wouldnt know that to the full extent Connor due to the fact that you left the force before then."

There is no need for this dude, i'm sure he had his reasons to leave the force before making it to the rank of PC but you saying that looks like your having a dig at him when he is only asking a question.

I can understand the frustration of every cop above the rank of PC when they get taken hostage and there is hardly any of the force online to respond to it because it happened a lot when i was in the police.

 

[bizby]

They are not forced to kill cops, they can rob us get our weapons, clothes, vehicle make us walk back or for their sake they can avoid us and go take other gang members hostage.

 

[Starsky]

Secondly:-

"It's rough being a cop past PC rank. But you wouldnt know that to the full extent Connor due to the fact that you left the force before then."

There is no need for this dude, i'm sure he had his reasons to leave the force before making it to the rank of PC but you saying that looks like your having a dig at him when he is only asking a question.

I can understand the frustration of every cop above the rank of PC when they get taken hostage and there is hardly any of the force online to respond to it because it happened a lot when i was in the police.

Shamefully, Connor and you have taken it the wrong way, he didn't go past the rank; but obviously aggression is the way to go from my miscommunication.

Apologies Connor, in terms of your situation; I would expect that rebels taking to killing officers instead of role playing is RDM. But maybe I'm not fully educated enough about the situation, it's pretty rough. :/

 

[Dir. Connor Portsmouth]

Shamefully, Connor and you have taken it the wrong way, he didn't go past the rank; but obviously aggression is the way to go from my miscommunication.

Apologies Connor, in terms of your situation; I would expect that rebels taking to killing officers instead of role playing is RDM. But maybe I'm not fully educated enough about the situation, it's pretty rough. :/

Sorry about being aggressive matey, just I generally get on the defensive a bit on here

I'm not talking about RDM at all, I'm just saying that I don't want this to turn into a situation where more officers need to be killed than necessary. The way it's been set out so far is that robbing police officers of all their gear and communications is an instant hostage, which is bonkers.

 

[Kris!]

I've never had an issue with it, it's also important to remember that restraining and holding an officer is different to taking an officer as hostage.

If an officer approaches you, feel free to restrain then, place them in a safe location, ask them to remove their comms or even placing a device on them prevents them from using their comms, that officer is pretty much out of commission for that period. Once finished, advise them that any sudden movements will result in the loss of their life, unrestrain, remove the device and let them be.

 

[Dir. Connor Portsmouth]

I've never had an issue with it, it's also important to remember that restraining and holding an officer is different to taking an officer as hostage.

If an officer approaches you, feel free to restrain then, place them in a safe location, ask them to remove their comms or even placing a device on them prevents them from using their comms, that officer is pretty much out of commission for that period. Once finished, advise them that any sudden movements will result in the loss of their life, unrestrain, remove the device and let them be.

The situation you've set out is exactly what I'm worried about, it's been worded as such that it seems doing that requires 10 players on, which is why I posted this to get a discussion going/ discover whether that is the case.

 

[Kris!]

The way I see it, this rule is set to prevent any rebel force taking 1 of few cops hostage and then requesting the attention of the entire remaining APD when there numbers are at a minimum. Anything short of A hostage op is fine.

 

[Snickersbar]

Well no offence but CSI Neos account of a hostage in the screenshot is false and vague.

noun
1.
a person given or held as security for the fulfillment of certain conditions or terms, promises, etc., by another.
 
To have a hostage situation you need 3 parties and there must be a submitted ultimatum, allthough in many cases the ultimatum can be implied out of fear of provocation. Otherwise we are talking about a captive, a prisoner or merely neutralization.
 
by the definition given above everyone restrained is a hostage making every cop a criminal, unless you want special definitions of words for police which is unprofessional. You also run into absurd scenarios such as being held hostage by your computer if TS fails or your car if it breaks or yourself because you broke it.
 
Futhermore if you can't neutralize a cop by using words and/or zipties the only option left is a bullet, unless you define that as prohobiting the officer from performing his duty as well making the whole missionfile pointless in the process.

 

[Neo]

Evenin' All.

As some of you may or may not know, soon it will be against server rules to kidnap an officer when there are below 10 officers online. This was made clear in the post about taking officers hostage, and here's a picture straight from Neo.

And from CSI Fuel

Now I can't be the only one who finds this situation utterly ridiculous. I know that being a police officer on the server is a tough job, but doing things like this really isn't how you go about fixing that or amending it in other ways. 

By limiting hostage taking to 10+ officers, the police force is now forcing civilians to shoot officers where we would otherwise take them hostage, overall reducing the already questionable roleplay from lots of gangs on this server.

And just to make clear, I'm more than happy to implement this for hostage situations, but kidnapping an officer to take them out of action to aid you in performing a crime shouldn't be counted as hostage taking. 

Frankly, the police force is now just bending the rules on this server to make it easier for themselves and harder for the civilians. I wouldn't have a problem with this if it didn't reduce RP or turn certain situations like this into a massive I WIN button, but frankly this is all I'm getting from the announcement.

Feel free to discuss below, I'm clearly very much against this. I'll keenly await the abuse I'll likely get from police members about going against this publicly. 

Alright, so lets look at this a bit better instead of crying its unfair.....

In the UK how many police are taken hostage each day? none.....

In the UK other islands? none.

In Altis life... 1 - 3 every 4 hour restart....

Why? prospect of easy money, or you just want to kill cops.....

Why implement the idea of a 10 officer rule? Common Sense.....

Realistically we should have 30 cops on-line 24/7, it's realistic to real life... cops dont go off duty because 90% of the population are in bed sleeping... we're a serious roleplay community, so let's be serious about it.....

In real life there are literally 1000's of cops on the beat at any given time, lets add those cops on call for riots, etc.

Then MP's (military police), who can be called upon at any time.

Then there's CCTV, security firms, actual civilians and people have a conscience.

Now let's look at the RP side......

lots of civs online, 5 cops online... 1 hop taken hostake.... 4 cops have to react to it, most cops dont have access to the "5 million"+ demands we get...

Here's a lightly out of date graph of police bank balances..

In the mean time;

 - drugs are being dealt with no risks.

     - Economy balance damage.

 - People are breaking laws

     - Speeding, kidnapping others, robbing service stations, speeding through town and crashing into others or damaging public property.... not that you care..... (that conscience thing again).

 - people are dying

     - 999 calls still come in, and we're not able to act on them.

at the same times, lets say we have 3 pcso's online 2 PC's online, which usually happens...

The negotiations are stuck at 5 million, the cops cannot access that, they're trying to negotiate down, and all they get is death threats...

so 3 still training PCSO's and 1 PC is then trying to mount a rescue mission, which may then involve them all getting killed... (Damn no conscience in taking lives either?).......

all the cops die, they're all fed up, 2 or 3 log off....

and don't give me the "no-one wants to take a hostage for killing cops".

it's BS, i got taken hostage by PLF, their demands? none..

They were then given an admin message warning that 15 cops were around the base including 1 x ghosthawk and a gunboat.....

and I quote: "We'd rather die".

In my opinion you'd never take a cop hostage... you'd look for people that are valuable in the community, or with friends with a lot of money that'd pay for the release.

 

[Neo]

also, no-one is forcing you to shoot (again no conscience/regret when pulling a trigger), none of you are civilians, there are hardly any.. EVERYONE is a rebel... we should ditch the cops and get an army at this rate.

 

[puppy1004]

I would just like to point out that 5 out of 10 calls we get are:

"We have a hostage, transfer us 10 Million within 5 minutes or he dies" This is no RP, you leave no time open for negotiations. A better message would be:

"We have taken <Name> hostage, message us a spot for negotiations."

 

[Rossss]

I would just like to point out that 5 out of 10 calls we get are:

"We have a hostage, transfer us 10 Million within 5 minutes or he dies" This is no RP, you leave no time open for negotiations. A better message would be:

"We have taken <Name> hostage, message us a spot for negotiations."

and the other half are "help"

 

[Kris!]

They were then given an admin message warning that 15 cops were around the base including 1 x ghosthawk and a gunboat.....

and I quote: "We'd rather die".

In my opinion you'd never take a cop hostage... you'd look for people that are valuable in the community, or with friends with a lot of money that'd pay for the release.

Just to add to that, if no demands where made, how did the 15+ police, ghost hawk and gun boat know about the hostage, the gang involved or the location being used?

I disagree with your opinion, people aren't willing to pay their friends out, who would be willing to pay a few hundred thousand if the value of the money out weights the value of the persons money? Let's face it, they would tell us to kill the hostage before departing with their money. We rely on taking police hostages as not only can we expect half decent role play, we also do it as a message to the government, to let you know that we are still here.