Non lethal initiation/Tire initiation

[Khandamir]

Got a few unclarities regarding the rules/how the rules seem to be interpreted... Been struggling to understand this for a while, got annoyed by it quite often but never actually put words to my frustration. Now I am.

Non lethal initiation/Counter initiation

Why do people think it is acceptable to rob/hold someone up using only kind words, while aiming a weapon at their target, only to complain when they get shot that ''They never initiated with a threat to life'', claiming the person who shot them before they could pull their own trigger, has therefor RDM'd them..

This is something that has annoyed me beyond anything and frankly, takes away the will to play the server sometimes, knowing people will try something like this and sometimes get away with it and get the other side banned. In my humble opinion, it's disgusting ruleplay, hiding behind the rules. It also creates highly unrealistic roleplay in those situations. Now I have never been held at gunpoint IRL, but I am pretty sure it won't be ''Hello buddy, could you kindly place those hands on your head for me now?'' in a very casual and nice tone of voice. If you point a gun someone and demand something, anything, you are physically threatening the other persons life or wellbeing. Your not about to offer him a cuppa after all. And if you are, don't use the gun..

From my POV, if someone points a gun at me and demands me, asks me, instructs me or commands me to do anything, whatever that is, they are threatening me. If I have the opportunity to speak back, threaten back, tell them to stop etc, I will. If however I am in the position in which I can, with a realistic chance, pull my weapon and defend myself by taking the other person out, I feel that should never be a issue.

Vehicle initiation:

Same as the old ''Get out of the car or your tires will be shot'', following by a claim of RDM if I shoot the person threatening me. If I get out of the car with a weapon, they will shoot me and claim it's not RDM because they initiated and I got out with a drawn weapon.. If I get out without a weapon, I will be taken/robbed. Meaning, anyone initiating on ''tires'' is protecting themselves behind the rules, full well knowing the other side has no real options here. You either get out to issue your own threats (which again, i think you shouldn't even need to), and probably be instantly shot because you are in a bad position after just getting out of a vehicle, probably not even knowing how many hostiles there are and where. You can also get out and comply, but then you already lost the situation effectively. You can also get out and try to shoot, but then it would be '"RDM'' because ''We never threatened your life, just your tires..''

The same thing as the non lethal initiation applies for me here. From where I stand, if someone shouts to me ; Stop the car or your tires will be shot! wants to rob me, kill me, kidnap me.. or generally has bad intentions. They initiated their intentions by their shouting. I should be able to reply in ANY way that I see fit. I should be able to step out and take on the fight. If possible ofcourse, interact with the other side. But if the situation does not allow for this, from where I stand, enough roleplay has already taken place before hand. The other party was setting up, had planned out to hold someone up, is armed, is prepared for it to turn into a fight. I get scared shitless, but I also have a big gun and trust in my own skills. I really don't see why I would always have to comply with their demand, or get out to tell them I am not going to comply and then be shot. I really don't see why, when in a good spot, I can't just decamp my vehicle, get into cover and kill those who clearly wanted to harm me and initiated on me because of it.

TL;DR:

Non lethal/vehicle initiations are pure ruleplay, allowing people to hide behind rules and create situations in which they know they will either get what they want, or they can claim rule-breaks from the other party. They create no level playing field in which the outcome is unclear, surprising and interesting. The accusations of RDM because someone shot you after ''You only pointed a weapon at them and kindly asked them to put their hands up'', or ''You only said you would shoot their tires from under their truck to make them stop'' are silly and imho, are contradicting the ''Serious Roleplay Community'' we want to be.

Ruleplay = Not Roleplay.

/rant over

 

[Haemisch]

I have always found it odd that whoever gets the jump, is the one in the right. If you say to me on the street, "give me your wallet or I'll stab you!" and I punch you in the face and you start crying and go to the police, it doesn't make sense to me why the police would then charge me with assault. I was not prepared to give this person my items and decided the best course of action was to punch him in the face and deal with the consequences of it if it went my way or not.

<-- has never actually killed anyone in this game since 2015

 

[DemonPuppy]

Back when I was in the police which was long ago, I remember an Admin said that the Staff Team doesn't distinguish Lethal and Non Lethal Initiation so from what I got from that is, if you initiate on me, I am gonna fucking kill you. As for the tyres, I remember and don't quote me, Vladic said something about giving someone a reasonable time as like if they get out, give them a chance to protect themselves. Again don't quote me, I could be wrong but I do remember something like this.

I completely agree with out, some people are really petty and cries when they die because they didn't actually threaten, I were you, tell them to fuck off and grow a pair. If you point a gun at me and demand me to do something, what do you think that is? Inviting me to a coffee break? Like no, you are threatening me and I am well in my rights to kill you.

 

[Shepherd]

Totally agree.

The minute you fire in someone's direction, even if it was only at their tires. You have threatened their life. Although your intent was not to harm them, you have fired bullets at them which could easily ricochet off of the tires and hit the driver. There is no such thing as a Non-Lethal initiation (Ignoring taser initiations but personally I believe they should class as lethal also, I do have my reasons).

Plus, when people pull the, "YOU DIDN'T THREATEN LIFE", when I have a 7.62 calibre to your head, I am pretty sure I threatening your life. 

Also, going back to your ruleplay point: People do this all the time and it infuriates me. For example, when you hover your helicopter over another helicopter, don't expect to survive that, you know that easily that pilot could take off and VDM you, but you still choose to hover above them as you know that if they take off, it is technically VDM.

Another example, is the warning shots without tracers. PEOPLE PLAY THIS RULE ALL THE TIME. I was in a situation with Ant Arni where we were just roleplaying at uranium and some guys wanted to rob us, we didn't even have visible guns at the time. They chose to hover above our blackfish and stay there, they never even came down to initiate. They hovered there for a good 5-10 minutes. Then eventually when we finished roleplaying with these two players at uranium, we set off to the buyer; but of course that guy was just hovering there, so we couldn't. Eventually, we got pretty annoyed and Ant pulled out his Mk18 and fired clear warning shots at the helicopter hovering above his blackfish - Don't forget he was literally 1 metre away from the blackfish which was on the ground, so it was pretty obvious who was shooting at him. Yet, the helicopter still chose to stay hovering. After a further 5 minutes, Ant shot him down, and guess what... "ANT ARNI GET TO LIAISON NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!" appeared in OOC. 

We got a staff members opinion on this (can't remember whose it was) but they agreed with our side, they were totally ruleplaying the fact that technically within the rules we couldn't shoot him down. 

As @Mattch once said, "Play Stupid Games, expect Stupid results" - or something along those lines.

I know I have repeated a lot of your points Khandamir, but I just wanted to share my opinion on ruleplayers and those who think "Non-lethal initations" actually exist. 

(If asked I will provide reasoning why I think that taser initiations should be lethal)

 

[SI Ali Barber]

TL;DR:

Non lethal/vehicle initiations are pure ruleplay, allowing people to hide behind rules and create situations in which they know they will either get what they want, or they can claim rule-breaks from the other party. They create no level playing field in which the outcome is unclear, surprising and interesting. The accusations of RDM because someone shot you after ''You only pointed a weapon at them and kindly asked them to put their hands up'', or ''You only said you would shoot their tires from under their truck to make them stop'' are silly and imho, are contradicting the ''Serious Roleplay Community'' we want to be.

From My POV: As police, we have to initiate with a non-lethal approach to begin with, we have internal rules and policies for this. However, even if it is non-lethal initiation it is still initiation, it is still perceived as a lethal initiation. There is no difference between lethal and non-lethal initiation. However, killing someone straight after initiation is still considered RDM or poor rp as quality roleplay must be carried out before shooting someone. 

Annoyingly yes this leads to people giving these "lovely" initiations and where they are super kind. Which is kinda offputting and annoying as id rather if someone gave a chat lured me to a building to a gang of mates hiding above only to scream at me for my gear.

Its always about being one step ahead of the rebels and thinking on your feet to how you can either get away / benefit from any situation and not placing yourself in hostile situations when not needed.

The same thing as the non lethal initiation applies for me here. From where I stand, if someone shouts to me ; Stop the car or your tires will be shot! wants to rob me, kill me, kidnap me.. or generally has bad intentions. They initiated their intentions by their shouting. I should be able to reply in ANY way that I see fit. I should be able to step out and take on the fight. If possible ofcourse, interact with the other side. But if the situation does not allow for this, from where I stand, enough roleplay has already taken place before hand. The other party was setting up, had planned out to hold someone up, is armed, is prepared for it to turn into a fight. I get scared shitless, but I also have a big gun and trust in my own skills. I really don't see why I would always have to comply with their demand, or get out to tell them I am not going to comply and then be shot. I really don't see why, when in a good spot, I can't just decamp my vehicle, get into cover and kill those who clearly wanted to harm me and initiated on me because of it.




7

Was STOP THE CAR OR YOUR TIRES WILL BE SHOT high-quality roleplay,, is decamping from your vehicle straight to cover high-quality roleplay. I always try to blag my way out a situation, this can either be enough time for a mate to grab me in an armoured vehicle or a Quick response vehicle like a sporty to grab me and get to safety with backup to further analyse a situation and if needed neutralise a threat. In that situation i am still offering a roleplay background, if the other party is just screaming "HANDS UP OR YOU WILL BE SHOT" of course you need to value your life, dont spam a load of // notes and be a salty person (not aimed at you but some in the community in general). Roleplay to the best of your potential and decrease the severity of the situation and most often that not you will be treated better. 

If you're still disgusted with the level of rp displayed, I know I would be, you can report them or question them to how they could've improved their side. Just remember always offer high-quality RP.

From my POV, if someone points a gun at me and demands me, asks me, instructs me or commands me to do anything, whatever that is, they are threatening me. If I have the opportunity to speak back, threaten back, tell them to stop etc, I will. If however I am in the position in which I can, with a realistic chance, pull my weapon and defend myself by taking the other person out, I feel that should never be a issue.

It shouldn't be an issue and usually its down to the other party coming out with a bullet in their head. If your acting hostile or they are overly hostile see if you can respond to their demands and roleplay offering many avenues.

Ali Barber - Hope i gave a little help even though im not staff or anything

 

[NotMattch]

Clarification on OP:

There is no such thing as "Non-Lethal" initiation.  As soon as you've made a threat to someone its considered initiation, this includes threatening to taze someone, they have the right to defend themselves.  Likewise, you don't "initiate" on a vehicle, as soon as you open fire on a vehicle the occupants are able to defend themselves as necessary (unless they've clearly informed you that they have friends in the area before you opened fire(after all, you're still shooting at them)).

Also, you don't need to "Counter-Initiate", if someone has made a credible threat to you then they can expect you to defend yourself.  However, the side that fires first must ensure that their side at least has provided High-Quality Roleplay so to not fall foul of the RDM rule.  (You can't really force the other side to RP to a high standard if they're not going to).

As staff, the reason we don't have a list of things on the rules page and won't go into more detail is the pure fact that as soon as we give any form of baseline that's taken as the "Minimum standard" and everyone uses it as a checkbox exercise to just ruleplay it and say "well we did what was required, and only what was required".  All situations we review are dealt with in an isolated manner and we look at the context of the situation, what variables were in play etc before we make a decision. 

Any further questions or clarifications please feel free to tag me

 

[L1L]

Clarification on OP:

There is no such thing as "Non-Lethal" initiation.  As soon as you've made a threat to someone its considered initiation, this includes threatening to taze someone, they have the right to defend themselves.  Likewise, you don't "initiate" on a vehicle, as soon as you open fire on a vehicle the occupants are able to defend themselves as necessary (unless they've clearly informed you that they have friends in the area before you opened fire(after all, you're still shooting at them)).

Also, you don't need to "Counter-Initiate", if someone has made a credible threat to you then they can expect you to defend yourself.  However, the side that fires first must ensure that their side at least has provided High-Quality Roleplay so to not fall foul of the RDM rule.  (You can't really force the other side to RP to a high standard if they're not going to).

As staff, the reason we don't have a list of things on the rules page and won't go into more detail is the pure fact that as soon as we give any form of baseline that's taken as the "Minimum standard" and everyone uses it as a checkbox exercise to just ruleplay it and say "well we did what was required, and only what was required".  All situations we review are dealt with in an isolated manner and we look at the context of the situation, what variables were in play etc before we make a decision. 

Any further questions or clarifications please feel free to tag me

You awnser most of my questions right there but would you please be so kind to weigh in on this post?