Current state of whitelisted gangs/groups

[MartinSmith]

Yello, I've had a couple thoughts about the city for a while now, but I'm not really sure which suggestion category to write them under, so I hope here will do! as a "Crim main" for the large duration of my seven months in the city, I've formed a few opinions about the current state of whitelisted gangs and through talking to others I know that I don't stand alone in these beliefs. I feel like the state of whitelisted gangs is an ignored issue and the level of RP provided by them has deteriorated, this is in no way isolated to a single gang/group and applies to many across the city.

It has become WAY too easy for someone to join a whitelisted gang/group withing RPUK. Whitelisted gangs/groups within the city are supposed to hold the highest standard of RP within the city, the criteria for become a whitelisted gang/group is not simply to "Be strong" or to win wars, From my understanding they are meant to prioritise roleplay at all times regardless of the quality of their fighting. I feel like this however has become a phenomenon in city and can only be credited to a few determined gangs/groups instead of the majority. In my opinion, the root cause of this is the decline in roleplay leading up to the initiation of a gang member into the Tablet (F6). Due to the hard process of becoming a recognised gang/group and the high quality of roleplay these gangs/groups surely whitelisted gangs shouldn't just take anyone. Whitelisted gangs should be reserved for the "Best of the Best" within the city regarding roleplay ability, and in order to make sure these standards are upheld there should be a sense of rarity to joining a whitelisted gang. I know from personal observations that within the city certain whitelisted gangs have a hangaround process of less than a week. There are whitelisted gangs/groups in the city who very evidently recruit players on the base of combat skill or purely just to increase their numbers and make them stronger, which I believe is a clear show of some Whitelisted gangs having a "Winning mentality" because it its obvious that these groups are recruiting to win. I think undeniably the hangaround process of a whitelisted gang/groups should be much, MUCH longer than it currently seems to be, in order to "Vet" the people who join. You should not have people in your tablet that barely know how to use vehicle placement, Whitelisted gangs shouldn't be the starting place for new players within the city.

I also think that this issue has been propelled by the amount of wars that have been happening recently. Wars and beefs alike should always have an extremely large amount of roleplay behind them. Similar to the RDM rule, I believe that beefs that end up in full scale gunfights (Unless extremely spontaneous) should be approached with a much higher level of roleplay. I understand that as a gang in city, you need to show a persona of being dangerous and willing to fight but in a realistic scenario you shouldn't be as willing to sacrifice multiple lives over small disagreements such as someone saying "Fuck [...]". I think that in the lead up to a gang beef/war, there needs to be sufficient roleplay provided to the situation. Leaders of whitelisted gangs should be less willing to sacrifice the lives of their members as although it is only a game, they shouldn't take into account their members ability to respawn. I think before a war or a beef, the gang leaders should consider more talks, other possible solutions and if the only possible solution is bloodshed then they go ahead. I think doing this will mean that whitelisted gangs/groups no longer feel a need to fill up their tablet with people who may not be fit for the position in order to become a stronger group. Again I understand that a lot of the time beefs/wars seem some what unavoidable and that they more times then not are very spontaneous, I still firmly believe that if the whitelisted gangs/groups started setting this example of quality roleplay before a beef/war then it will massively improve the quality of roleplay overall in whitelisted gangs.

This has been something I've been thinking of for a while now, and I thought I'd express my opinion here and possibly get some other thoughts/criticism. Its kind of a shell of an idea and I know I have no real plausible solution but I wanted to push the issue to the frontlines. If this suggestion has already been talked about or something similar has been addressed (And if i wasted my time writing this) Please let me know

 

[L1L]

Its an interesting perspective you've brought forward, i do however wonder if you've been apart of any groups during your time or if this is purely an outsiders perspective?

I do however agree with you on a few of your points, i think the bulk of it can be explained by the culture that developed through the history of this community. Being recognized as a combat-capable group is something that has always been rewarded within RP and having the numbers is a considerable advantage in those situations. In addition to this, FiveM RP in general has moved away from the long-form style of RP in favor of high-octane action (you could compare it with a movie and a 14-second tiktok).

I think its also worth taking into account that this is not a whitelisted server and alot of the players who come to RPUK do so with no rp experience at all, if this was a whitelisted community expectations on RP could be set but in my opinion the same can not be done when the majority of players simply dont have the experience needed.

There are still groups that do a lot of the things you've outlined as desirable however they do so at the expense of appealing to the few.

 

[MartinSmith]

Thanks for reading through and sharing your thoughts

Its an interesting perspective you've brought forward, i do however wonder if you've been apart of any groups during your time or if this is purely an outsiders perspective?

Although my time in the city being short compaired to many, I've been involved and part of many groups/gangs the most notable being my time in changaloas and a short spree in Vagos but there have been many others such as Chippiones, Zk's and currently Swiss street. My time in the city may have been spent mostly within unwhitelisted gangs, but I've seen the hangaround process of certain gangs second hand through friends who have cemented themselves in some known colours. So these thoughts are sort of an accumulation of first and second hand experiences in the city.

I do however agree with you on a few of your points, i think the bulk of it can be explained by the culture that developed through the history of this community. Being recognized as a combat-capable group is something that has always been rewarded within RP and having the numbers is a considerable advantage in those situations. In addition to this, FiveM RP in general has moved away from the long-form style of RP in favor of high-octane action (you could compare it with a movie and a 14-second tiktok).

I 100% agree with this and don't think there's really much I can add. I feel like this fast paced "Culture" could be stopped if whitelisted gangs took initiative and set the standard for more slow paced roleplay. Although in the short term this may seem more boring, but looking at the bigger picture i feel like it will bolster RP.

I think its also worth taking into account that this is not a whitelisted server and alot of the players who come to RPUK do so with no rp experience at all, if this was a whitelisted community expectations on RP could be set but in my opinion the same can not be done when the majority of players simply dont have the experience needed.

I completely understand this, me personally RPUK was my first FiveM experience and my first few weeks in the city was riddled with poor RP and general mistakes. However my early experience in Un-whitelisted gangs taught me my way, and how to RP properly and to a high standard. I feel like RPUK itself acts in a way that unconsciously cultivates people into providing better RP, but I don't believe that the breeding ground for this should be Whitelisted gangs. Whitelisted gangs should set the example for good RP not directly teach it, the training ground should be unwhitelisted gangs/groups and the wider city I know that RP expectations can't exactly directly be set, but I feel like if there was a greater RP criteria for joining a whitelisted gang, then good roleplay will become the standard for everyone who wants to become involved.

There are still groups that do a lot of the things you've outlined as desirable however they do so at the expense of appealing to the few.

I've made sure I've refrained from mentioning specific gangs as I don't want this to seem like a personal attack based of an in city experience, but I agree that there are still groups that do provide this good level of RP, for example I've heard that Cutlass now have a very selective system to maintain quality over quantity. I would argue that whitelisted gangs shouldn't have to worry about appeal, their strength should be in RP and with good RP the members will eventually appear. I feel like it's clear that if a whitelisted gang solely focuses on numbers then their priority is in fighting ability and not the RP they provide which shows an evident "win mentality". The privilege of whitelisted gangs should be the clothing, the turf and the connections and not the size of the tablet.

 

[AIan]

That's a good point actually, I spent a month and half waiting when I was first hangaround to join a whitelisted gang, and nowadays you see gangs mass recruiting people "in the middle of beef" just to win their war.

 

[Joe Scrub]

They really do be taking anyone these days, look af people like @LX_TRICKS

 

[Bmav]

Its an interesting perspective you've brought forward, i do however wonder if you've been apart of any groups during your time or if this is purely an outsiders perspective?

I do however agree with you on a few of your points, i think the bulk of it can be explained by the culture that developed through the history of this community. Being recognized as a combat-capable group is something that has always been rewarded within RP and having the numbers is a considerable advantage in those situations. In addition to this, FiveM RP in general has moved away from the long-form style of RP in favor of high-octane action (you could compare it with a movie and a 14-second tiktok).

I think its also worth taking into account that this is not a whitelisted server and alot of the players who come to RPUK do so with no rp experience at all, if this was a whitelisted community expectations on RP could be set but in my opinion the same can not be done when the majority of players simply dont have the experience needed.

There are still groups that do a lot of the things you've outlined as desirable however they do so at the expense of appealing to the few.

Jeep is right on the nail, unfortunaly being a combat recognized group ends up giving you more rewards in Rp than the the opposite, this has been the case for some years now and the groups who dont have any sort of combat ability unfortunaly end up either disbanding or staying irrelevant with no way of recognition so all or almost all the groups are kinda forced to take the same approach just to stay alive and not disband.
As for the appeal, yes getting a turf and clothing is really good but if you think about in RP any unwhitelisted group could just fight over a piece of turf or taxing rights etc.. so if you think about it by fighting they can still be rewarded, the issue atleast in my opinion is that there isnt a significant appeal to say getting in a whitelisted gang will give you a massive advantage in comparison to a non whitelisted.

 

[Mike Polo]

As for the appeal, yes getting a turf and clothing is really good but if you think about in RP any unwhitelisted group could just fight over a piece of turf or taxing rights etc.. so if you think about it by fighting they can still be rewarded, the issue atleast in my opinion is that there isnt a significant appeal to say getting in a whitelisted gang will give you a massive advantage in comparison to a non whitelisted.

^ This point made me think

So, with no strength advantage, a non-WL gang could roll any WL gang.

Therefore, gangs have become a game of who can collect 25 shooters and less about the RP.
How would you guys suggest turning this on its head? To make gangs more about RP and less about shooting.

Keep in mind that even if I were to make a massive feature of new content for gangs, I feel the majority would still focus on shooting rather than RP.
So there needs to be a mechanic change rather than some big feature.


I am genuinely interested in what changes you guys would think could change that dynamic

 

[L1L]

If you're doing any large-scale crime you will need to pick up a gun at some point, reading your reply @Mike Polo makes it seem as if the crims/gangs are responsible for the ''detriment'' to RP.
You've made a very complicated issue into a simple one which just isn't true by any stretch... Look at the history of groups on the server, every large group that was seen as ''strong'' from a combat standpoint where rewarded and fed by the factions, they where given favorable discounts and access that was gatekept from those seen as weaker. Why is that?

Another point is the police, if you somehow end up doing enough crime you will eventually be in the police and judiciary's crosshair, the punishment for being caught hugely motivates anyone to take the risk and therefore fight and if you're going up against a never-ending stream of police officers, as a group, it makes sense to try to at least match those numbers. The point is, you can't contribute this apparent ''issue'' you've found to one thing/group its the result of everyone responding and developing their playstyle to survive on the server (wich goes for both police and crims).

Im not sure there is a solution to this, if you want things to change you have to sacrifice but how you'd motivate anyone to do that without light at the end of the tunnel i dont know.

 

[Bmav]

^ This point made me think

So, with no strength advantage, a non-WL gang could roll any WL gang.

Therefore, gangs have become a game of who can collect 25 shooters and less about the RP.
How would you guys suggest turning this on its head? To make gangs more about RP and less about shooting.

Keep in mind that even if I were to make a massive feature of new content for gangs, I feel the majority would still focus on shooting rather than RP.
So there needs to be a mechanic change rather than some big feature.


I am genuinely interested in what changes you guys would think could change that dynamic

While i see your point that even if new content was given to gangs you feel like they would still focus on shooting i feel like they should atleast be given a chance of trying it out, the way i see it is that its no different from content that would change the game added to police or any other faction, the realistic issue is they are not given the chance and have been stagnant for last couple years, yes some changes to drugs were made and were needed changes but that was a general change that affects everyone it doesn't change whitelisted gangs.

Yes with no strength advantage any gang can roll any gang, as for making the whiteslited gangs appealing i don't think there is much you can do mechanic wise to fix it, i mean you could reduce the unwhitelisted gang cap but i don't think that will make people flock towards whitelisted gangs just because of that hence the reason why i think a dynamic system of "leveling up" would be the correct way to approach it.

Personal opinion, i feel like some of the turf changes that were suggested by Archie would make this appeal look more like you HAVE to or it will be a massive diffrence between a whitelisted and unwhitelisted gang and also make progress like a leveling up kinda feeling, now into more detail:
If i am not mistaken, the Archie turf changes (this is all speculation btw) resorted in a "capture" the flag type of thing that only whitelisted gangs had where they had their Main turf that could never be taken and they could expand by spraying certain areas where the more areas you get the more the sprays would cost to be able to expand even more (they would cost absurd amounts of a different type of a currency like dirty money which you would get by doing banks or other ilegal activities that way everyone starts on the same page no one is rich)
Now what would those areas consist in ? they would consist in selling areas and you could level up your selling area the way you would like, for example if you want to choose a certain drug that the locals would prioritize in your turf that means that drug would sell for more on your turf and the more people selling in it would give certain perks to the gang or something else (could be various things like the gang will be able to unlock the recepie for this drug to make it on their own turf or the drug becomes cheaper to make for that gang or if it reaches a certain treshhold the gang will start receiving a certain percentage of each sell like 1% of each sale or something like that , etc... could be something else entirely just an idea)

The point is same as factions or certain groups on the server there should be something that gangs should have that makes them essential on getting something or gives them a priority over some others, they are whistelisted yet have not got anything that truly differentiates and makes them per say special than from a random person that creates an F6. In my opinion, a change should be drug related because i feel like its the "gang thematic" per say, i feel like the turfs idea would make stuff interesting not to mention there could be things related to all the random benches scattered around the map that are not currently usable etc.. honestly i could give a fully fledged idea about it but i do think this was most of what i thought the crim update was going to be at the time it was announced (again all speculation).

If you're doing any large-scale crime you will need to pick up a gun at some point, reading your reply @Mike Polo makes it seem as if the crims/gangs are responsible for the ''detriment'' to RP.
You've made a very complicated issue into a simple one which just isn't true by any stretch... Look at the history of groups on the server, every large group that was seen as ''strong'' from a combat standpoint where rewarded and fed by the factions, they where given favorable discounts and access that was gatekept from those seen as weaker. Why is that?

This is also true, and it makes gangs have to rely on that playstyle to just survive and not disband, the reason that gangs are unfortunately the way they are is for survival aspect not for the sake of wanting to be that way.
From personal experience on the server, i tried vividly to get away from that but when certain groups force you into combat you don't really have a choice its either "do or die" hence why i basically never really started a war on the server apart from like 1 or 2 times over 3 years, because warring 24/7 isn't enjoyable especially when its done for the smallest reason like kicking someone of a bicycle.

 

[Kate Anderson]

Another point is the police, if you somehow end up doing enough crime you will eventually be in the police and judiciary's crosshair, the punishment for being caught hugely motivates anyone to take the risk and therefore fight and if you're going up against a never-ending stream of police officers, as a group, it makes sense to try to at least match those numbers. The point is, you can't contribute this apparent ''issue'' you've found to one thing/group its the result of everyone responding and developing their playstyle to survive on the server (wich goes for both police and crims).

There lies a problem imo, you paint the police as a source to uphold the adrenaline juice for gunfights. Why? This is still a roleplay server and by - YES I will say it - this mentality, that you (criminals in general) focus on being high numbers, having a lot of good fraggers, having a lot of "positive" (in your perspective) outcome = win , you already pave the path that is now a highway -- the focus on gun crime --- you make the server how it is right now. No update, no game-mechanic (maybe by stopping gunsupply) you alter the mindset.

I do understand the hustle that crims had the past 3 years, since I started as a crim on this server, yet I can only imagine how it would have been to play as a crim for this long. I did choose police, especially CID, since I got very soon very tired of the dick measuring contest on crim, the frequent kidnapping, torture, demonstration of power and constant drama. It's not my world.

For me the focus lies on memorable stories, not on high octane shootouts. You can go on any FPS game or team shooter to get that or other FiveM server with the COPS/CRIM layout. RPUK is not the one!!

I would take an heated but sophisticated conversation with the Old Man @Archie over any gunfight any time. It seems the high frequency of action/fights resembles the attention span for TikTok, and the long enjoyable and thrilling RP story is the 10/10 TV Series, that you cant stop watching. Right now a lot of players watch TikTok on RPUK.

The problem is, that its not one group that seeks actions and fast pace everyday "pushs", gunfights, optimizing and min-maxing the odds for the win -- Its almost everyone. It's a maelstrom that pulls even newer not combat focussed groups in. Since they then get bullied and harrassed by some established groups for fun.

As the Thread-creator has suggested: The leaders are responsible for the change. Furthermore, the gun supply in total has to be stopped imo. There are too many guns, this is now Detroit, Chicago or whatever North-American City you want to name.

Remember, by playing this style (guncrime, high octane, high-aggressive, never surrender, always the win in mind) the persisting roleplay for everyone else on the server is tarnished maybe even ruined in some way.

Create more amazing TV-Series content than TikTok memes. Please.

Thanks.

 

[VeikkQ]

From the point of view of outsiders and some who do not know the role play behind the gang war, I only ever see the gang war. I have never been told why it started. As a police officer, I feel that sometimes the server is dead; nothing is happening, and I can’t find anyone on the server at all to create something, as nothing is coming towards me, and that’s fine. However, the streets are empty, and then a gang war breaks out, where firearms from the police show up and the fighting does not calm down, even when we get involved and start arresting people. It’s a bit frustrating to do nothing but sit there and eat popcorn until one of the gangs has won, and then we transport people to Pillbox or call the NHS or try to decide whether we should go after and try to save one of the gang members who has been tracked down.

These daily wars are just ridiculous, and as police, I have no clue what to do to improve role play. If you commit a crime, such as shooting someone in front of me, I don’t think that is smart anymore, and you should absolutely be punished for it.

Additionally, some days I play as my solicitor, and still, there are no people to do anything. The only thing that happens is that I get gang checked.

I have no clue what I can do as a fellow player to stop this pointless shooting. I’m not sure if developer time alone will resolve anything.

 

[Mike Polo]

If you're doing any large-scale crime you will need to pick up a gun at some point, reading your reply @Mike Polo makes it seem as if the crims/gangs are responsible for the ''detriment'' to RP.
You've made a very complicated issue into a simple one which just isn't true by any stretch...

I'm under no illusion that there is one quick fix out there.
Bmav made a point, and I focused on it.
At no point did I say that Gangs are responsible for the detriment of RP, but they play their part like the rest of us do.

 

[Mike Polo]

While i see your point that even if new content was given to gangs you feel like they would still focus on shooting i feel like they should atleast be given a chance of trying it out, the way i see it is that its no different from content that would change the game added to police or any other faction

I didn't say that with the intent of depriving gangs of any content that may be added; I said it to try to focus on the mechanics at play.

The turf system is a mechanic.

 

[L1L]

There lies a problem imo, you paint the police as a source to uphold the adrenaline juice for gunfights. Why? This is still a roleplay server and by - YES I will say it - this mentality, that you (criminals in general) focus on being high numbers, having a lot of good fraggers, having a lot of "positive" (in your perspective) outcome = win , you already pave the path that is now a highway -- the focus on gun crime --- you make the server how it is right now. No update, no game-mechanic (maybe by stopping gunsupply) you alter the mindset.

i'll refer to my first reply on this thread, apologies if i made out the police to be the issue that was not my intent, i think we're all the result of each others behaviour. People learn from previous interactions and instead of de-escalating decide to do the opposite wich has progressively lead to where we are now. Police play a part in this as much as crims do, these two groups are at the core of rp on the server due to their inherent conflict of interest so how they interact with each other sets the tone for the rest of the server.

If you don't like how people RP then dont play into that style of rp, put your guns away or let it slide, yes it will probably mean that your character gets shot or 'loses' but if you're not willing to do roleplay in the way you believe it should be done in favor of getting the ''win'' then why should anyone else? This is what I mean by ''if you want things to change you have to sacrifice''.
(not targeted at anyone just a general statement to try and explain where im coming from!)

 

[Bmav]

I didn't say that with the intent of depriving gangs of any content that may be added; I said it to try to focus on the mechanics at play.

The turf system is a mechanic.

Oh fairs my bad i misunderstood what you meant by mechanics, i thought you meant like either in RP changes or stuff that was like easy to change.
But the TLDR from me is mostly expand the turf system in terms of perks and making it dynamic and most importantly keeping it fresh i do reckon a different currency like dirty money to be able to like "level up your turf" or buy sprays to expand would be a cool change again this is all drug/turf thematics and not to mention if something like a new currency was added that could only be obtained doing certain crim actions would be a really good change it would soft reset every crim to a certain degree making every group start at the same point.

 

[AIan]

^ This point made me think

So, with no strength advantage, a non-WL gang could roll any WL gang.

Therefore, gangs have become a game of who can collect 25 shooters and less about the RP.
How would you guys suggest turning this on its head? To make gangs more about RP and less about shooting.

Keep in mind that even if I were to make a massive feature of new content for gangs, I feel the majority would still focus on shooting rather than RP.
So there needs to be a mechanic change rather than some big feature.


I am genuinely interested in what changes you guys would think could change that dynamic

Reduce the number of F6 for gangs to 15 or 20

 

[Mike Polo]

Reduce the number of F6 for gangs to 15 or 20

So if we reduced the cap on all gangs,

do you not think the same would happen? that it would just be a rush to get the max to be the big gang and take on all the others?

 

[Mike Polo]

i'll refer to my first reply on this thread, apologies if i made out the police to be the issue that was not my intent, i think we're all the result of each others behaviour. People learn from previous interactions and instead of de-escalating decide to do the opposite wich has progressively lead to where we are now. Police play a part in this as much as crims do, these two groups are at the core of rp on the server due to their inherent conflict of interest so how they interact with each other sets the tone for the rest of the server.

If you don't like how people RP then dont play into that style of rp, put your guns away or let it slide, yes it will probably mean that your character gets shot or 'loses' but if you're not willing to do roleplay in the way you believe it should be done in favor of getting the ''win'' then why should anyone else? This is what I mean by ''if you want things to change you have to sacrifice''.
(not targeted at anyone just a general statement to try and explain where im coming from!)

Yeah, I think you need to be careful how you phrase stuff. From reading your writing you seem eager to point the finger and establish blame.
When in reality, we all would like to see an increase in roleplay.

We are all on the same side here. There is no need to blame and take sides.

 

[L1L]

Yeah, I think you need to be careful how you phrase stuff. From reading your writing you seem eager to point the finger and establish blame.
When in reality, we all would like to see an increase in roleplay.

We are all on the same side here. There is no need to blame and take sides.

That is completely down to the reader's discretion, I've outlined in every comment so far that I believe there are multiple moving parts resulting in the state of RP currently.
At the moment you're the one one pointing fingers.

 

[AIan]

So if we reduced the cap on all gangs,

do you not think the same would happen? that it would just be a rush to get the max to be the big gang and take on all the others?

So if we reduced the cap on all gangs,

do you not think the same would happen? that it would just be a rush to get the max to be the big gang and take on all the others?

It will be a rush yes, but still this will increase gang activity and prevent them from dying, as I think we will see more gangs in the city and this will create more rp