A Topic on FiveM Policing

[Jolly]

After seeing @Alfred Wilson's post regarding the state of RP on the FiveM server (Which if you haven't read, I highly recommend), I was pleasantly taken aback. Not only was the post positively received by the community, there were also many constructive responses from various areas of the community such as Staff, Development and Players about their personal opinions and views. Therefore, I have decided to use this opportunity to give an alternative view on a different area of the server, namely the police. Being from GSF (Grove Street Family), who have had a lot of interaction with the police, I feel I am in a certain position to share my experiences and what I have seen from the FiveM police. And before you assume this is some sort of formal mainstream rant on the police, I don't intent to show any bias towards either side. I have taken the time to gather opinions from both sides before making this post, so I can come to a reasonable conclusion which neither side can see as unjust.

Firstly I'll give my view on a rather common occurrence which GSF especially have been noticing, which is an increased police presence in and around the area of Grove Street. From an RP perspective, I can somewhat see the reasoning behind this. In real life, especially in America, police presence is increased in dangerous areas of cities where gang activity and crime are more prominent. However, on multiple occasions we have seen single crewed officers refuelling at the fuel station and coasting along the street which, to a degree, intentionally aggravates GSF as we have made it very clear that we do not enjoy the sight of the police on our 'turf', yet situations like the one mentioned above continue to occur. I'm not sure if this is similar in other gang controlled areas, but this just what I have experienced. It has gotten to the point where certain individuals are now looking to assault single crewed officers and take any firearms they find, which will help no one. My personal recommendation would be to warn officers about entering areas of concern such as Grove Street, especially single crewed and police could possibly attempt to engage in dialogue with gang leaders to avoid further unnecessary hostilities. 

Another issue which I have begun to notice as I've furthered my experiences within the server is the inherent 'jumpiness' of the police in response to certain situations. If that's a little vague, allow me to recount an incident in which this occurred. Myself and 3 other civilians were talking outside of Legion Square when we spotted a single crewed firearms officer purposefully slow down to watch what we were doing. We felt this was unjust and called out for him to watch the road. He pulled over and we had a pretty pleasant conversation regarding hats. During this conversation, one person within the group accidentally entered the officers vehicle while attempting to enter his own (since the doors were fairly close together). Instantly this police officer pulls out his rifle, aims it to the driver and exclaims 'If you drive off you will be shot, if you drive off you will be shot'. This is not immersive roleplay or what I'd expect to see from any officer. Had that man decided to disobey the officer and been shot, that would have not only been poor RP, but absolutely unjustifiable in the eyes of anyone. However I am aware there are trolls who don't want to RP and just mess around. But regardless, a whitelisted faction such as the police need to provide the highest level of RP possible. An easy fix to this is simply to use common sense before action. Don't shoot a man who attempts to flee in your car. Simply call a traffic unit if he drives away. Or just try to remember to lock it in the first place. 

Finally, I'd like to take the opportunity to bring a point to light which many people have noticed but haven't really commented on, which is certain things police have been seen doing. I have seen police do things such as use their sirens to bypass red lights, drive erratically and damage property while engaging in pursuits, and so on. I understand that it's very difficult being a police officer on this FiveM server. It has only recently gained traction and many people are overwhelmed by this whole new experience. Many don't care for the police and will actively defy them. I think this stems from what Alfred was talking about. In Arma, you never had to stop at red and could chase criminals anywhere. But if we truly want to make this a more realistic server, then the police should definitely lead by example. The implementation of the I and S call grading and common sense fixes the issues above, but it's mostly a matter of remembering that if you as a police officer want to run that red light or knock over that sign, someone will see it. Any because of that experience, they may judge you accordingly. 

I think a couple of these points come from the issue of single crewed patrols. I know the FiveM server is much larger, but you may find that more of you in one location gives you that extra amount of confidence and control over a situation. But again, that's a personal suggestion. I know this is a fairly long-winded post, but I feel it is a fairly detailed examination into an important aspect of the server which definitely needs some attention moving forward. If you disagree with my points, or feel that what I have said is incorrect, please feel free to give your own opinion. I'd love to see alternative points of view on this topic.

 

[Stealthee]

Police command on GTA RP has just changed, so I think giving them a little bit of time to assess and get used to it as a team would be my initial thoughts. I have seen their command chats and the stuff they have planned and are working on/requesting will hopefully improve this a lot in the coming days, weeks, etc!

They have struggled and I have been on patrol with them 2 times and both times, it is actually really hard with the civlian population all driving recklessly, driving up saying F the police, harrassing them etc... People need to look at both sides, possibly the officer just wanted fuel and thought shit I can't make it to the next fuel station this is the closest I'll only be 2 minutes, and now he is being mobbed by the families, threatening to kill him etc...

All I want to say is remember that person you are harrassing, fuck the police, yaaa fuckkk outta here... etc is actually a person trying to roleplay as well, so put some thought into it, let them enjoy it as well.

Don't ruin eachothers roleplay by overdoing the whole gang coming after you no matter what side of the city you are on etc...

Hope this makes some sort of sense it did in my head

 

[TinyBigJacko]

Valid points, most of these. Bear in mind that the police force in its current form is only a matter of a week or so old, and training, rules-of-engagement, and other aspects of policing is still very much an ongoing process. We made a deliberate move and took a calculated risk to engage more officers and 'get boots on the ground', whilst shortcutting some of the background processes that exist on Altis (where there are potentially hundreds of pre-trained officers to choose from at any given time).

As such, the cops will make mistakes, and learn through experience. We deliberately set all the clocks back to year zero, so that people can get to grips with what the GTA5 engine provides us, much of which is vastly different to the ARMA3 engine and its limitations.

Much of the old 'initiation' protocol that exists on ARMA is completely pointless and irrelevant on GTA, and (speaking as the person who first coined that phrase on here, sometime back in 2014, and has watched it become twisted and abused over the last 6 years to my horror), I am so glad that finally we may be able to stop some of the pointless 'hurdles' and awkward telegraphing of intentions that wrap up so many exchanges in Altis in red-tape, recriminations, report-a-player, liaison and all that awful 'play-to-win' roleplay-ruleplay stuff.

Don't get me wrong. That doesn't mean that in GTA you can just go around RDMing people without a word, or can continue to do all your in-group talking via that Teamspeak radio that you miraculously have stuffed up your jacksie that somehow doesn't let a person standing adjacent to you even see your lips move as you talk into it. It doesn't mean that you can just troll and bait and expect to be ignored (either by police or by staff). But it does mean that certain things maybe require a little bit less 'subtitling' and 'telegraphing'.

For example, in ARMA3, there is no advance clue that someone's going to get in your car; they'll just teleport inside it, giving the thief a massive advantage. In GTA, it's a lot more obvious; door-handles get physically held, people actually climb in to a car, doors actually open and close - so it's a lot easier for someone to use their innate 'danger detection skills' to see what might be happening, or about to happen, and to take a stance to deal with it. This was much less possible in Altis, and is precisely why I had to remind the community for the need to 'slow everything down, talk more, signal your intentions in such a way as to give a nearby 'actor' time to realise what was happening to his character, and roleplay the outcome fairly'. This 'initiation of roleplay' was a necessary evil to establish a direction of an encounter; whether it was likely to turn hostile (and why) and whether it was fair (in terms of time for a response to be prepared). In GTA, a great deal many more things are signalled by avatar stance, walking 'expression', reaching for weapons rather than just appearing with them in your hand, etc. It's not perfect, but it's way better than ARMA, for sure. Consequently, our rules of engagement, immersion, reaction... dare I say, initiation, are all likely to evolve over time, and become less constrictive and stifling... at least, I hope.

Obviously realism is still key. Nobody here is superhuman, or above the law. There are some very delicate balances that we will still need to continuously tweak, in order to make things fun, exciting, and involving, whilst still being realistic (to a reasonable degree) and immersive.

For example (and you said this yourself)... the cop not locking his door in the first place, was a silly move, and a sign of forgotten or missed training. I'm sure they'll improve over time. His response may have been heightened and excessive, but if it was a genuine mistake, and the 'perp' got back out, things can be de-escalated, apologies given (cars locked) and sanity returns. OTOH, if the perp had decided to follow through with his action to steal a police car in plain sight in the middle of Legion Square, then, frankly, all bets are off, at that stage. IMHO it's more realistic for the cops to go 'full-on' at that point, than it would be for a perp to try such a dick move (but I'm not suggesting he never should - just that it's seriously risky and rather crazy imo).

As far as Grove St patrolling goes, I agree - it makes no sense for singular officers to be pushing their dicks into that wasps'-nest if they don't have backup... but tbf, how do the residents know (fully, without metagaming) that this isn't actually part of some 'lower profile' plan, to test responses, reactions, identify kingpins, gain intel, surveil, etc. I would wager that nobody in GSF really knows (in-character, if they're not accessing forbidden police-character knowledge) exactly what the cop plan is, or even if there is one? They might guess, of course... but I doubt the police command are going to confirm it at a Neighbourhood Watch meeting any time soon! 

Also bear in mind that we have a different set of character outcome possibilities in GTA... people can (and may yet) die forever. It's not all about winning. It's equally valid to play a character whose life descends into irretrievable drink and drugs and becomes a ket-fueled bum, skipping round the server in flip-flops begging for meals and eventually dying in a puddle of piss... forever (i.e. they ask for character-deletion when they've had enough of that RP line). Similarly, certain characters that become public nuisances to a point of imbalancing the 'fun for all' aspect to a dangerous tipping point, may well find that their character gets locked up **for life** leaving the player with the choice of RPing one of their other character-slots (with a restriction not to follow the same 'line of RP' as its predecessor). Eventually, that character may 'die in jail' - but on the way, may or may not become a kingpin **inside** the jail, as that line of RP develops (watch this space).

There is so much more here that we can do, than we were ever able to achieve - or even hope to achieve - with the limitations of ARMA3's engine. I'm not knocking ARMA3 - I had many, many happy hours developing and playing that platform, but GTA is so much richer, and has way more potential for 'civilian-life' RP, than a milsim that's been twisted into something it wasn't ever meant to be. With GTA the distance is a lot shorter.

So... TL;DR - give the police time. They've already proven a great deal of commitment, enthusiasm, resilience, and desire to get stuck in. They should all feel duly proud of their whitelisting, and the fact that they have used it to help grow this server so much in such a short space of time already. I'm indebted to them. We all are. They give us something to bounce off, and play with, both aggressively and supportively, or as our protectors. Things will be rough and sketchy for a while, no doubt, but they will improve, of that I am sure. Stick around, help shape them, with constructive input like the above, and by getting involved maturely, and I'm sure we'll all reap the benefits.

 

[Corrie Healy]

Love this post I will admit I only read up to the second paragraph as I felt I got the basic jist of the post and what I would like to add at this point might add more later.

I have been on a few WL servers on FiveM as cops and civ I will admit WL communitys are widely different to open servers but every cop has to follow a use of force scale (same as here) if a cop sees a person enter his patrol vehicle it may be a accident but I feel that civs like to just jump cop cars when ever they get a chance I find this very unrealistic as you wouldn't just take a cop car in front of a cop IRL but as of this current time a lot of cop cars are just robbed on a large scale I feel this may just explain a general idea of why cops can be at times very jumpy if someone enters there car even tho to the civ it may have been accidental 

Also in my opinion I haven't seen anything regarding the Grove st area in any police chats on discord or even in radio channels so this may just be a miscommunication on the part of the cops but I do agree with the higher policing presence if that is the case in Grove street as you said realistically cops would want to keep a closer watch on areas of high gang activity but I do not agree with single crews I think ever car should be a double crew depending on the treaty level of an area.

Also cops inst that old give it time to grow and develop